Eli's Proposal (Oskar at Eighteen)

[sauvin]

But I think it's potentially much more complicated than that. For example, studies have shown that children brought up in close proximity to one another (such as in a family) generally have no sexual attraction to one another at all. Kind of a ‘brother-sister’ effect.
...
Both Oskar and Eli are pre-pubescent and Oskar could conceivably remain so for perhaps another year, especially if he leaves society with all its pressures behind and runs off with Eli. During that time, their relationship could quite easily slip into one of this type.

This is an interesting take. The effect is hard-wired into our brains, by evolution, so sexual interest is just turned off. Maybe the period would be long enough for this effect to come into action.

I'd completely forgotten about the kibbutzim. Would their time together before Oskar wakes up sexually be enough to bring this effect about?

I don't know, but still can't get the passages in the novel out of my head, particularly the ones where Oskar spends much time and effort wrapping himself around the idea that his girlfriend (and not, mind you, his "friend") isn't a girl. He spent that time not rejecting her, but trying to adjust himself to the role he imagines he'd wind up filling by staying with her. But maybe that's just Oskar trying to fit himself into some pre-existing role, his preoccupation with her gender really just his trying to conform to the general (and generally unstated) expectation that he grow up, get a wife, start having kids, etc., without actually understanding what all this role entails.

This discussion covered quite a bit more field than is actually warranted by the question your fiction (and mine) actually looks into. In mine, it isn't a question that Oskar would develop sexually, and it isn't a question he'd look towards Eli in this vein, because my Oskar wouldn't want to be with anybody else. This whole thread has given me quite a bit to ponder, and looking towards Eli with sexual interest no longer seems inevitable, but Oskar will develop sexual interest that probably wants to be answered one way or another.

The crux of the matter in Mork's proposal and in my Oskar at 14, at its most basic, is this: how would this interest affect Eli, even if Oskar does not have any interest in her sexually? I somehow can't imagine Eli being comfortable with change she can't really understand.

[PeteMork]

The crux of the matter in Mork's proposal and in my Oskar at 14, at its most basic, is this: how would this interest affect Eli, even if Oskar does not have any interest in her sexually? I somehow can't imagine Eli being comfortable with change she can't really understand.

QFT. And Eli's limited experience with this particular change is a bit dark. There's no doubt that, for this and other reasons you have pointed out so well in "Oskar at 40", they would have great difficulty safely navigating their own mondo sinistro.

[metoo]

The crux of the matter in Mork's proposal and in my Oskar at 14, at its most basic, is this: how would this interest affect Eli, even if Oskar does not have any interest in her sexually? I somehow can't imagine Eli being comfortable with change she can't really understand.

QFT. And Eli's limited experience with this particular change is a bit dark. There's no doubt that, for this and other reasons you have pointed out so well in "Oskar at 40", they would have great difficulty safely navigating their own mondo sinistro.

Yes, Oskar will start having a sexual interest, in so far his brain will start reacting on sexual stimuli. But he need not act on these enticements, although he might.

Both of you have very successfully written a plausible outcome of Oskar staying with Eli without being infected. But none of you, as far as I can recall, have explored Eli's need for a protector the years before Oskar can take that responsibility, and what that would do to their relationship. What would happen?

[sauvin]

Both of you have very successfully written a plausible outcome of Oskar staying with Eli without being infected. But none of you, as far as I can recall, have explored Eli's need for a protector the years before Oskar can take that responsibility, and what that would do to their relationship. What would happen?

You're very kind to an old man, I think.

I did explore Oskar's attitudes towards some of the minders Eli inevitably had to "hire" in my 40something Oskar work, but it was part of the backstory, mentioned briefly before moving on. Now that you mention it, I suppose I should let an "Oskar at 16" start percolating. Seems like Eli's overdue for another Long Sleep, and Oskar just doesn't seem up for the job, never minding that neither of the kids WANT him to be..

[DavidZahir]

Ahem. I'm not claiming to be an ascetic or anything, but in fact the sexual drive is not a need. Rather, it is a desire, and a powerful one. Our own society tends to place far too much importance--to a degree that frankly seems neurotic--on it. People in fact live their entire lives without sexual relations, and that is sometimes entirely by choice. Myself, I think we probably could use a few more rules and rituals around this activity (not to the weird degree of the Victoria Era--just some shape to give understanding and some protection--but that is another subject).

My main point is that giving up sex is not like cutting off a hand. It is a sacrifice but hardly an unthinkable one, especially from a volunteer.

And again I ask: could Oskar? Would he? Aside from this "pure love" business, why?

Well for one he might not have a particularly strong sex drive. Or he simply might have a greater priority than fulfilling that desire--which is not at all uncommon, since relatively few teenagers are guilty of rape and plenty remain virgins until their twenties. Is it really so unthinkable to think that someone who knows his beloved finds sex extremely traumatic would simply refuse to have sex with that person?

[Nicro]

Ahem. I'm not claiming to be an ascetic or anything, but in fact the sexual drive is not a need. Rather, it is a desire, and a powerful one. Our own society tends to place far too much importance--to a degree that frankly seems neurotic--on it. People in fact live their entire lives without sexual relations, and that is sometimes entirely by choice. Myself, I think we probably could use a few more rules and rituals around this activity (not to the weird degree of the Victoria Era--just some shape to give understanding and some protection--but that is another subject).

My main point is that giving up sex is not like cutting off a hand. It is a sacrifice but hardly an unthinkable one, especially from a volunteer.

And again I ask: could Oskar? Would he? Aside from this "pure love" business, why?

Well for one he might not have a particularly strong sex drive. Or he simply might have a greater priority than fulfilling that desire--which is not at all uncommon, since relatively few teenagers are guilty of rape and plenty remain virgins until their twenties. Is it really so unthinkable to think that someone who knows his beloved finds sex extremely traumatic would simply refuse to have sex with that person?

BAH BAM!! This is what I have been thinking and don't find it hard to believe at all. It seems like a lot of folks on here are acting like you turn into a sex crazed ZomKan once you turn 15 or something

[God of Vampires]

Well for one he might not have a particularly strong sex drive. Or he simply might have a greater priority than fulfilling that desire--which is not at all uncommon, since relatively few teenagers are guilty of rape and plenty remain virgins until their twenties. Is it really so unthinkable to think that someone who knows his beloved finds sex extremely traumatic would simply refuse to have sex with that person?

BAH BAM!! This is what I have been thinking and don't find it hard to believe at all. It seems like a lot of folks on here are acting like you turn into a sex crazed ZomKan once you turn 15 or something

True, for some people sex is not a priority, I shall know as I am one of these people. Still, for most teenagers it seems to be. People like me seems to be in minority, though it is possible that Oskar is also is part of this minority. Also, I never said he should do so with Eli. In fact, I prefer him not to. I doubt he even feel that way about Eli. That does not mean complete abstinence however.

I am not too keen on our societies fixation on sex, but I am of the opinion that it is aeons better than the alternative, too much regulations only diminish freedom. I do not care for religious dogma, especially concerning sex. Still, Oskar is probably better off without it . If I were him I would have stayed a child, closer to Eli .

[Nicro]

Yeah I don't find it to be priority either, personally. And since Oskar has always been a more, outcast, thoughtful kid who likes to read, it seems that he would probably think the same way. At least it seems to me that people like that usually feel like there is more important stuff than sex.

[rgh]

The situation is a little different when you are at the age when your hormons are at their peak and the one you love is laying naked in bed with you, kissing and holding tight. I'm not saying he couldn't resist, he could. I'm just saying it is possibly more difficult. Availability is a major factor, even if sex is not a priority,

[Batshua]

An androgynous being (who has been androgynous since before puberty) is incapable of experiencing “sexual” gratification.

I'm pretty sure that's not true.

People who've suffered spinal cord injuries and no longer have sensation below the waist still experience sexual gratification! Their brain rewires those sensations to other tissues that still receive sensation.

(It's really cool, look it up!)

Even if that were not the case, it is a known fact that many people (who?) [citation needed] willingly engage in sexual acts that give them no physical pleasure but give them psychological pleasure simply because they know they are giving their partners enjoyment.

…

However, I'm not sure that Eli could do this without having massive flashbacks to the horrible abuse and trauma he has been through.