From the light of a different sun

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sauvin
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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by sauvin » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:56 am

A great many animals kill other animals in order to live. You can ask a leopard to change its spots with greater chance of success than asking it to re-engineer its digestive tract. There's no moral dimension involved when the leopard takes down a deer any more than when a snake eats a gerbil because these animals don't have a choice: this is what nature demands. They're predators, and they have natural role to play in their respective environments.

A great many other animals are omnivorous. They'll eat fruits, vegetables, nuts, berries, grasses, grains, insects, fish, just about anything they can get their paws on. There's no moral dimension involved when a rat eats a bunch of peanuts it found scattered around any more than when it consumes a mouse. This, too, is what nature demands.

Cannibalism in the animal kingdom is not unknown. Given my proposition that animals that eat conspecifics do so because this, too, is what nature demands (or, at least, allows), there's still no moral dimension involved. They don't have Parliaments or Congresses or police forces or religious leaders to tell them that cannibalism is wrong; all they have are environmental influences to encourage or discourage it.

I don't set man apart. Quite the opposite, in fact: I think it's idiotic to deny that, as a species, we're barely out of diapers, still innately more animal than something Above or Beyond. What I would find even more idiotic is to deny that we have potential to become something more, something greater, something better than what we are today. I don't believe we'll ever succeed in realising that potential until we've learned how to live with ourselves, to recognise that we are still animals and find some way of co-existing with that fact peacefully and comfortably until we've found a way to push our essential natures into some other direction.

I tend to lump the concepts of law and religion together in this context, calling them (amongst a number of truly unflattering things) early (primitive) attempts at codifying sets of values and modes of behaviour more conducive to the survival of the greater community and the species as a whole than would be the patterns of behaviours inherent to the chimpanzees from which we are said to have sprung. We do have Congresses and Parliaments and village elders and police forces and religious leaders to tell us that cannibalism is wrong, and I'm guessing very nearly every modern member of our species lives under the expectation he or she will understand and obey what his or her respective governing body demands, and very nearly every modern member of our species is expected to understand that failure to comply risks undesirable consequence.

We have a (nearly) universal injunction against killing other human beings without reason. This simple fact was codified thousands of years ago in the Christian bible with the original text that reads (as I understand it) "thou shalt not murder". Killing a soldier on the field of battle because he's wearing the wrong colour isn't killing without reason, and neither is killing a man you catch trying to kill your wife or children. We have a nearly universal taboo against cannibalism even if it doesn't involve first killing the victim, but very, very few of us would condone killing another human being expressly for this purpose. It doesn't matter how hungry we get, we'll often die believing that killing another human being in order to use his body as a source of food is just wrong. It's contrary to the laws of God and the laws of Man... and we used to believe it was against natural law.

The thing about killing and eating conspecifics is if your species doesn't reproduce prolifically, you're casting a vote in favour of your species' extinction. Another thing about killing and eating conspecifics is that there's more than one way to go about it - it doesn't always literally involve a victim's flesh sliding down into a predator's belly.

I'm smack-dab in the middle of reading about the Radium Girls who died in their dozens and suffered painful, debilitating illnesses in their thousands because the companies they worked for valued money far above human life. To be fair, it's not clear that these companies understood at first the dangers radium posed when they insisted their production departments ingest it, but it is clear that they came to understand said dangers quickly enough, denied them and continued to insist that their workers destroy their bone marrow. This isn't direct cannibalism, but those companies did knowingly take their workers' lives without their consent in order to feed themselves.

The Radium Girls' story isn't unique. Similar stories abound in other industries and other countries, both in the past and the present. When we're lucky, the government steps in, writes some laws, moves in some supervisors, and workers' lives are vastly improved, at least for a while. As an example, in the US, the meat packaging industry was once upon a time one of the most dangerous lines of work to get into, and most folk who could find alternatives avoided packing meat. Government stepped in, and meat packaging became one of the safest lines of work you could get into.

At least, for a while.

Would Dracula die if he were to stop consuming human blood? The vampiric archetype demands it - at least in part - because of the universal taboo against cannibalism. Even if it weren't true, and Draccie could live off cows and horses and other animals large enough to donate a gallon or two without injury, it suffice that Draccie believe he requires human blood.

This is why Dracula exists. We're not there yet. We're not even close to having the capacity to become something Above, something Beyond. There are simply too many people around who'll suck the life out of you without your consent - or even your knowledge - because their bellies are more important than yours.

I don't let Eli off any hooks. As I recall, I've tended to call her a "stone cold serial murderess". I can and do hold her to a human moral standard even while noting that since she's impelled by inhuman influence, she's become something other than (totally) human and therefore subject to a realm in which the very concept of "morality" may not even apply.

However, this is why Eli (without LtODD) exists. She exists because Dracula exists. Somebody somewhere along the way has to ask "Yes, this is what I am; this is what I do. Does this mean that this is ALL I am, that this is ALL I can do? Can there not be something more?" She's bright enough to understand that she can't get there by herself. She's even bright enough to understand that she shouldn't exist, however strong her will to live might be against the pangs of conscience.

She's also a warning. Eli has to kill her victims and make sure they stay dead because she's something Dracula isn't: contagious. Just think of all the fun to be had by all if she were ever to forget who she is, even for just a moment. One wild party, a couple hits of acid or maybe a few tokes of roadside weed, and an uncontrollable geometric progression ensues.
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dongregg
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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by dongregg » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:56 pm

Well, sauvin, you've come through again. Your well-thought-out essay hits all the relevant moral/biosocial points.

The thing for me is that neither JAL nor I am willing to let Eli off the hook. I don't really see that she lets herself off the hook. Virginia chose suicide, although I don't think Eli ever would, unless it was to end her miserably unsatisfying life, but not because of a moral crisis. I've presented her crisis as an existential one--she cannot feel whole when a major part of her is not her, but a sort of alien parasite.

I think I got stuck by continuing to treat Eli as a "good" vampire, not like Dracula or the evil lord. I've gotten as much mileage (too much?) as I can with that central theme. I'm willing to move past that through Ávila's idea of buying blood when the family gets to Barcelona. But where does that leave me? I'm not sure that journey/quest is strong enough to carry the story. It starts to sound to me like a kind of "Ozzie and Harriet visit Spain." Not a vampire story at all.

Well then, I await a coup by my muse to supply a new agon. But that's what muses are for. Fellow forum members, too. :think:
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by PeteMork » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:44 am

dongregg wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:56 pm
Well, sauvin, you've come through again. Your well-thought-out essay hits all the relevant moral/biosocial points.

The thing for me is that neither JAL nor I am willing to let Eli off the hook. I don't really see that she lets herself off the hook. Virginia chose suicide, although I don't think Eli ever would, unless it was to end her miserably unsatisfying life, but not because of a moral crisis. I've presented her crisis as an existential one--she cannot feel whole when a major part of her is not her, but a sort of alien parasite.

I think I got stuck by continuing to treat Eli as a "good" vampire, not like Dracula or the evil lord. I've gotten as much mileage (too much?) as I can with that central theme. I'm willing to move past that through Ávila's idea of buying blood when the family gets to Barcelona. But where does that leave me? I'm not sure that journey/quest is strong enough to carry the story. It starts to sound to me like a kind of "Ozzie and Harriet visit Spain." Not a vampire story at all.

Well then, I await a coup by my muse to supply a new agon. But that's what muses are for. Fellow forum members, too. :think:
Ozzie and Harriet had David and Ricky; decidedly non-vampiric and not dangerous at all except perhaps to teenaged girls. I would think even a pair of blood-buying vampires, as harmless as they may seem to the casual observer, still contain the parasite. It could make for some interesting conflicts if a certain 'unnamed' detective were to follow them to Barcelona and put their aiding and abetting "parents" in danger of arrest, exposure, or worse. There's a lot that can happen to a couple of impulsive tween vampires who are both overprotective and feeling their oats. "The Eli Chronicles" comes to mind... ;)
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by PeteMork » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:04 am

sauvin wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:56 am

...I don't let Eli off any hooks. As I recall, I've tended to call her a "stone cold serial murderess". I can and do hold her to a human moral standard even while noting that since she's impelled by inhuman influence, she's become something other than (totally) human and therefore subject to a realm in which the very concept of "morality" may not even apply.

However, this is why Eli (without LtODD) exists. She exists because Dracula exists. Somebody somewhere along the way has to ask "Yes, this is what I am; this is what I do. Does this mean that this is ALL I am, that this is ALL I can do? Can there not be something more?" She's bright enough to understand that she can't get there by herself. She's even bright enough to understand that she shouldn't exist, however strong her will to live might be against the pangs of conscience.

She's also a warning. Eli has to kill her victims and make sure they stay dead because she's something Dracula isn't: contagious. Just think of all the fun to be had by all if she were ever to forget who she is, even for just a moment. One wild party, a couple hits of acid or maybe a few tokes of roadside weed, and an uncontrollable geometric progression ensues.
I think an example of Eli's morality can be found in your last paragraph. Not enough, perhaps, to let her off the hook but enough to tilt things a bit more in her favor. She doesn't have to kill her victims; she choses to -- perhaps because she doesn't want to unleash more 'monsters' on an unsuspecting world, or perhaps because she doesn't want to inflict such a horrible curse on her latest (likely innocent) meal. To her credit (and with clues from JAL) I'm fairly sure it's not because she doesn't want the competition.
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by dongregg » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:11 am

PeteMork wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:44 am
Ozzie and Harriet had David and Ricky; decidedly non-vampiric and not dangerous at all except perhaps to teenaged girls. I would think even a pair of blood-buying vampires, as harmless as they may seem to the casual observer, still contain the parasite. It could make for some interesting conflicts if a certain 'unnamed' detective were to follow them to Barcelona and put their aiding and abetting "parents" in danger of arrest, exposure, or worse. There's a lot that can happen to a couple of impulsive tween vampires who are both overprotective and feeling their oats. "The Eli Chronicles" comes to mind... ;)
About that detective--I was complaining to VSG about not having an agon for the kids in Barcelona, and I used the relentless detective Javert as an example of an agon that could bear the weight of a novel-length story. But with the kids no longer murdering people, and Mr. Ávila providing a family for them, what's to be solved? Am I up for writing more police procedurals into the story? I'm not. Then what?

I don't know, but I can write a fuller version of vignettes I've already started while I wait for my muse to slap me around. And yes, the kids are as dangerous as ever. It would be best if nobody provokes them (bringing back the bully theme). Hm. I remember a soccer story metoo wrote. The kids could find other kids to play soccer with.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by metoo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:26 pm

PeteMork wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:04 am
I think an example of Eli's morality can be found in your last paragraph. Not enough, perhaps, to let her off the hook but enough to tilt things a bit more in her favor. She doesn't have to kill her victims; she choses to -- perhaps because she doesn't want to unleash more 'monsters' on an unsuspecting world, or perhaps because she doesn't want to inflict such a horrible curse on her latest (likely innocent) meal. To her credit (and with clues from JAL) I'm fairly sure it's not because she doesn't want the competition.
I used to have the impression that Eli kills his victims as a coup de grâce, because he wants to spare his victims the horrors of a life as a vampire. But the novel doesn't actually say this, it's just a possible interpretation of what Eli says on the matter: "I don't want to infect anybody", combined with what he had explained to Håkan: that the infection has to be blocked from reaching the victim's brain, or else the dead body will rise again.

But we are never actually told why Eli does this. Although I too think that it isn't to avoid competition, it may very well be to protect himself. He avoids creating new vampires, which by their very existence would tell people about what is going on. He may even have learnt this from his sire, the vampire lord, and continued the practice because he found it sound.

Actually, I think this is a better explanation of the scarcity of vampires than the suicide one presented in the novel. Vampires kill their victims to avoid leaving traces about their true nature, and therefore few new vampires are created. That said, I still think Virginia's suicide is credible and that most infected would kill themselves eventually. But eventually isn't immediately. Many infected would likely spread the infection further before ending their own misery.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by cmfireflies » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:20 am

well I think Eli shouldn't be on any hooks, and a case can be made that he's the most moral of all the characters just because he still retains his humanity after hundreds of years of living alone and after being castrated, tortured and abandoned.
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by dongregg » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:55 am

cmfireflies wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:20 am
well I think Eli shouldn't be on any hooks, and a case can be made that he's the most moral of all the characters just because he still retains his humanity after hundreds of years of living alone and after being castrated, tortured and abandoned.
That's a refreshing angle to judge Eli from.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by cmfireflies » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:56 am

dongregg wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:55 am
cmfireflies wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:20 am
well I think Eli shouldn't be on any hooks, and a case can be made that he's the most moral of all the characters just because he still retains his humanity after hundreds of years of living alone and after being castrated, tortured and abandoned.
That's a refreshing angle to judge Eli from.
I could never judge Eli, dongregg. She can do no wrong in my eyes.
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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Re: From the light of a different sun

Post by Pissball » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:36 pm

Do you folks "justify" Eli because she is a child, or because she is a vampire?

I mean, she says "I kill because I have to" (basically) which it's true, he needs blood, he has his vampiric impulses and the "infection" even provides him claws, wings, fangs, etc. So it's clear that's his nature now anyway, like it or not. Besides, his body functions changed, now the sun burns him to dead, sleeps a lot etc. Is not just the impulse to drink blood, as if was an actual "unusual disease" as he claims.

It would be the same if we take LTROI into realistic fiction?
Eli would be what? an abused street child prostitute, orphan, with some sociopathic behavior and drug-addiction instead of blood-sucking maybe, that leads him/her to perprate certain crimes to acquire either clothes, money for drugs, a place to sleep, etc or simply violence and ground for psychologists. I assume this Eli is less moral and more hard to justify and at the same time is actually more "human" than vampy Eli, it's a child who really needs help, even if she has a great self-control as Eli sometimes shows in the book, being very calm and observant.

There's a thread asking if Eli is "toxic" ... In this case, what will be your reaction after reading Eli asking "Do want to become like me" showing Oskar a needle? and the pair escaping to live "free" and together in trains and in with the company of bums, criminals, creeps, and also good but marginalized people.
Or Oskar naivetly exchanging blood with the actual infected Eli (Hepatitis, Aids, whatever) to show his loyalty to his druggy friend, they are child after all. Very bleak.

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