Is Eli a Person?

[Ash]

I was trying to put forward the idea that a person's 'humanness' could (should?) be judged through their behaviour. The extent to which we exhibit "humane" rather than typically "human" behaviour. Meaning behaviour characterised by kindness, mercy, or compassion towards - should I say fellow humans, or other living things?
Why we do so is largely irrelevant. Fear of God or going to hell, humanistic ideas of reason, ethics, and justice, or just because we feel it's the right thing, any will do fine.
That doesn't exclude anyone as it's a sliding scale I suppose. Even the worst amongst us never drop off the bottom of that scale completely. Though some politicians and the media love referring to others as sub-human animals and beasts.

Research shows that monkeys and apes have a sense of morality and the rudimentary ability to tell right from wrong. They can make judgements about fairness, offer altruistic help and empathise when a fellow animal is ill or in difficulties. They even appear to have consciences and the ability to remember obligations. Field studies in Tanzania also illustrate how chimps occasionally murder other chimps for no apparent survival-related reason.
Being human is not as easy to define as we once thought it was. It's quite easy for the religious inclined who work on the idea of only humans having souls. But as we all know, even shoes have soles.

[sauvin]

I was trying to put forward the idea that a person's 'humanness' could (should?) be judged through their behaviour. The extent to which we exhibit "humane" rather than typically "human" behaviour. Meaning behaviour characterised by kindness, mercy, or compassion towards - should I say fellow humans, or other living things?

Looks like you understood me perfectly.

Why we do so is largely irrelevant. Fear of God or going to [deleted], humanistic ideas of reason, ethics, and justice, or just because we feel it's the right thing, any will do fine.

When people obey the law or conform to community standards only when there's a fear of punishment, then primieval atavism seems more likely when said fear is removed. Genuine belief in reason and ethics is much more durable because the presence or absence of the danger ouf punishment for nonconformance tends not to figure largely in the reasoning process. "Just feeling it's the right thing to do" doesn't come from fear of punishment, for example.

As for justice, well... how would you characterise or describe it?

That doesn't exclude anyone as it's a sliding scale I suppose. Even the worst amongst us never drop off the bottom of that scale completely. Though some politicians and the media love referring to others as sub-human animals and beasts.

If you can honestly say that, you've never met the "worst of us". There are people, by some estimates as much as four percent of the general population, for which there is no "scale".

Research shows that monkeys and apes have a sense of morality and the rudimentary ability to tell right from wrong. They can make judgements about fairness, offer altruistic help and empathise when a fellow animal is ill or in difficulties. They even appear to have consciences and the ability to remember obligations. Field studies in Tanzania also illustrate how chimps occasionally murder other chimps for no apparent survival-related reason.

Do simians have an abstract concept of "right" and "wrong"?

I'm not prepared to contest anything else in this quote. Far from it - could you provide links? I'd like to read up a bit more on this.

However, if chimps (our closest cousins) can murder for "no apparent reason", then perhaps they're rather more human than we're comfortable admitting.

Being human is not as easy to define as we once thought it was. It's quite easy for the religious inclined who work on the idea of only humans having souls.

I can't even define the word "define", and have no concrete notion of what a "soul" might be.

Edit: 5 Novembre 2011, replaced a "bad word" with [deleted] to comply with renewed restrictions on language.

[cmfireflies]

this might not be murder for no apparent reason, but chimps do kill each other for territory.

http://io9.com/#!5569991/the-deadly-inh ... and-humans

I find it oddly comforting that humans aren't the only species that kill each other. We're just better at it..

[Balb Kubrox]

Nope.
She is special.
Doesnt have to pay for a date, just takes it.

seriously though, shes an animal. Thats Vampirism.

[Ash]

Ash wrote:That doesn't exclude anyone as it's a sliding scale I suppose. Even the worst amongst us never drop off the bottom of that scale completely. Though some politicians and the media love referring to others as sub-human animals and beasts.

If you can honestly say that, you've never met the "worst of us". There are people, by some estimates as much as four percent of the general population, for which there is no "scale".

I now live and work in a place inhabited by people whom I was never exposed to when I was growing up. It was quite a shock.
Generationally unemployed, violent, angry, uneducated yobs. Housos.
They were children of people like themselves, and their children more likely than not will become the same as them.
The sweat 8 year old in my first class here 12 years ago - drug addict mother, baby at 14, father murdered, I see her in the mall these days begging for change. But she's still on the scale, somewhere.
To say she is not, by extension suggests she is less human and less worthy of life. From there it's a slippery slope leading to the philosophy of the gas chambers.
That 8 year old never really had a chance due to circumstances beyond her control. Nobody can't pick their parents.
There but for the grace of god go...well, all of us.

[sauvin]

Ash wrote:That doesn't exclude anyone as it's a sliding scale I suppose. Even the worst amongst us never drop off the bottom of that scale completely. Though some politicians and the media love referring to others as sub-human animals and beasts.

If you can honestly say that, you've never met the "worst of us". There are people, by some estimates as much as four percent of the general population, for which there is no "scale".

I now live and work in a place inhabited by people whom I was never exposed to when I was growing up. It was quite a shock.
Generationally unemployed, violent, angry, uneducated yobs. Housos.
They were children of people like themselves, and their children more likely than not will become the same as them.
The sweat 8 year old in my first class here 12 years ago - drug addict mother, baby at 14, father murdered, I see her in the mall these days begging for change. But she's still on the scale, somewhere.
To say she is not, by extension suggests she is less human and less worthy of life. From there it's a slippery slope leading to the philosophy of the gas chambers.
That 8 year old never really had a chance due to circumstances beyond her control. Nobody can't pick their parents.
There but for the grace of god go...well, all of us.

This "sweat" eight year old sounds depressingly similar to girls/women I've known, and even written about briefly in this very forum.

I wasn't referring to people in desperate circumstances such as you describe. Circumstance can indeed force people into an animal-like subsistence, but these people are still people in every measure of the word. As you say, your young woman is still "on the scale".

The "worst of us" I was referring to are sociopaths.

[metoo]

... Do simians have an abstract concept of "right" and "wrong"?
I'm not prepared to contest anything else in this quote. Far from it - could you provide links? I'd like to read up a bit more on this. ...

Here's a link about monkeys showing they understand fairness.

[sauvin]

... Do simians have an abstract concept of "right" and "wrong"?
I'm not prepared to contest anything else in this quote. Far from it - could you provide links? I'd like to read up a bit more on this. ...

Here's a link about monkeys showing they understand fairness.

Holy CRAP! The basis on which I conjecture a human sense of community may be MUCH older than I'd thought!

[metoo]

Holy CRAP! The basis on which I conjecture a human sense of community may be MUCH older than I'd thought!

Ooh, yes, And more to it, its innate, not taught.

[Ash]

The "worst of us" I was referring to are sociopaths.

Four percent sociopaths. You're probably not far off the mark.

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

A few of those indicators make me worry about myself.