Quotes About Love, Fitting for LTROI

[gattoparde59]

Perhaps this takes this thread off topic, but I don't really think that Eli can be characterized as a feral child. Isn't it generally agreed that Eli's development ceased at the point at which she was turned? The film doesn't really comment on this except when Eli says that she has been twelve for along time. Indeed, the film doesn't comment on her childhood or family life at all, but if you want to take it that she did having a loving family during her childhood, then all of her development would have taken place in the context of that family. There has been no development during her life as a vampire. Maybe this is the key to how she has retained her grip on her humanity and the basically good aspects of her character. By being "frozen" as who she was at the time when she was turned, she is also frozen against the evil and horror that now make up her existence.

Then you are saying that Eli's evil nature as a vampire preserved Eli's innocence as a child, frozen as a 12 year old?

Indeed, the film doesn't comment on her childhood or family life at all, but if you want to take it that she did having a loving family during her childhood, then all of her development would have taken place in the context of that family.

Exactly my point. Eli needed this love that she knew previously with her hypothetical family to be able to survive her long corrosive existence as a vampire. She does display some signs of being feral. She is ignorant of proper dress and hygiene. She is ignorant of common place things and does not know her own date of birth. In the deleted exterior scene Oskar says something to the effect: "don't you know anything?" Most of all the sense that all those years as a vampire have taken their toll show up in the first meeting with Oskar, and later when Eli pleads "Be me a little" and appears suddenly very old, closing her eyes on some unvoiced misery.

That was one of the reasons I like the quotes from the "Little Prince."

[Wolfchild]

What I find troubling is this. First, Eli has done so much for Oskar that he owes a huge debt of gratitude to her. Second, Oskar (in the film) is such a thoroughly good person (the way I see him, anyway). The problem is that the more gratitude Oskar owes to Eli and the better person he is, the less freedom he has in this matter. In fact, I can’t conceive of him refusing to go with Eli after what she does for him in the swimming pool any more than I can conceive of him not inviting her in when she starts bleeding. And, unlike “wisdom” I feel that freedom is a necessary condition of true love. There are well know cases of person’s who married someone out of a deep sense of gratitude only to discover that this is not the same as love.

Moreover, because Oskar is such a good person, once he makes this decision he is also depriving himself of any future freedom to reverse it. He will stay with Eli out of obligation whether he really wants to do so or not. (This of course is immaterial in the final scene on the train but is significant in the way we see Oskar’s decision to follow Eli).

So it seems that what is troubling you is Oskar's state of mind at the time he decides to leave with Eli. Of course, the film does not show Oskar leaving with Eli, and we could debate about whether the film actually shows him making this choice. However, the time we are shown Oskar that is closest to the point in time where he left with Eli is probably when Oskar comes back to the surface of the pool. My interpretation of his state of mind at this time is simply that he is happy to see Eli again. He doesn't have a puzzled look on his face. He is not wondering why or how she is there. He is not wondering what happened to Jimmy. He does not even look around to see where the bullies might have gone. That beaming smile that we see is not one of relief at not drowning. That smile is one of joy at seeing once again his friend whom he loves and whom he had thought he would never see again. I cannot conceive that in this scene his mind is filled with thoughts of, "Wow, I can't believe you just beheaded Jimmy to save me. I owe you big time." The film had earlier shown him to be truly grieving over the loss. I believe that his decision to leave with Eli was made in order to avoid experiencing that loss again. And the only way that he could feel such a loss is if he was in love with her.

Go fire up your DVD and watch the end of the pool scene once more, and focus on Oskar's face as he comes to the surface. What do you think was going through his mind at that point?

[gattoparde59]

That smile is one of joy at seeing once again his friend whom he loves and whom he had thought he would never see again.

One of the reasons I was trying to find quotes that refer to seeing people that you love, and how you see the people that you love.

@Lacenaire. I don't see the issue of love as being one of free will and choices freely made, but of liberation for both Oskar and Eli. From Oskar's perspective, the world, specifically the world of adults, is a world that has repeatedly failed to care for him, love him or at the very least notice he is there. In Oskar's mind he escaping from a heartless, cold world at the end.

I also feel that Oskar, in contrast to his father or his teachers, feels a sense of responsibility towards Eli. If Oskar does not "let Eli in," than what is to become of Eli? This sense of responsibility can only grow out of genuine love, not a "quid pro quo" type of relationship. From his perspective, Oskar is turning his back on a heartless adult world and running away with a 12 year old vampire. Someone who cares about him, and who he cares for very deeply.

to quote, again, from the Little Prince:

"But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."

I have tried to explain the theme of freedom in the novel in this thread:

http://www.let-the-right-one-in.com/for ... ?f=4&t=993

[Lacenaire]

So it seems that what is troubling you is Oskar's state of mind at the time he decides to leave with Eli. Of course, the film does not show Oskar leaving with Eli, and we could debate about whether the film actually shows him making this choice. However, the time we are shown Oskar that is closest to the point in time where he left with Eli is probably when Oskar comes back to the surface of the pool. My interpretation of his state of mind at this time is simply that he is happy to see Eli again. He doesn't have a puzzled look on his face. He is not wondering why or how she is there. He is not wondering what happened to Jimmy. He does not even look around to see where the bullies might have gone. That beaming smile that we see is not one of relief at not drowning. That smile is one of joy at seeing once again his friend whom he loves and whom he had thought he would never see again. I cannot conceive that in this scene his mind is filled with thoughts of, "Wow, I can't believe you just beheaded Jimmy to save me. I owe you big time." The film had earlier shown him to be truly grieving over the loss. I believe that his decision to leave with Eli was made in order to avoid experiencing that loss again. And the only way that he could feel such a loss is if he was in love with her.

Go fire up your DVD and watch the end of the pool scene once more, and focus on Oskar's face as he comes to the surface. What do you think was going through his mind at that point?

In fact, this is closely related to the point I made elsewhere about the importance of the acting in making such judgements in this film. If you pay close attention to the facial expressions of both Oskar and Eli at various points in the film and let yourself be guided by the acting of Lina and Kare (as directed by Alfredson) rather than by various preconceptions about vampires, 12 year old children etc, then there is no doubt that this is indeed a love story. For the same reason the fact that Lina in an interview says that Eli is "kind", is also significant because it shows that she must have thought so when she was acting Eli, which in turn suggest that Alfredson must either have told that to her directly or suggested indirectly.

So I have no doubt that this was the kind of Eli she was trying to present and the question really is "did she succeed"? I think yes. Similarly, I think Kare was indeed acting someone who is in love and I also think he succeeded. If you really look at the film in this way, that is, by allowing the actors to decide what he characters feel and show it through their acting then I don't think there are any ambiguities left any longer. Why many people do not seem to see this, is, I think, due to the fact that film audiences (unlike theatre audiences) are not used to getting their ideas about film characters from the actors but rather tend to rely on other things (preconceived notions, their own view of what the real world is like, ec.)

Of course, when I was writing about my "doubt" I forgot about this aspect too. I was thinking only about the story and the story itself does not resolve these ambiguities (on purpose, I think). But I think the actors clearly do just that.

[Lacenaire]

@Lacenaire. I don't see the issue of love as being one of free will and choices freely made, but of liberation for both Oskar and Eli. From Oskar's perspective, the world, specifically the world of adults, is a world that has repeatedly failed to care for him, love him or at the very least notice he is there. In Oskar's mind he escaping from a heartless, cold world at the end.

I also feel that Oskar, in contrast to his father or his teachers, feels a sense of responsibility towards Eli. If Oskar does not "let Eli in," than what is to become of Eli? This sense of responsibility can only grow out of genuine love, not a "quid pro quo" type of relationship. From his perspective, Oskar is turning his back on a heartless adult world and running away with a 12 year old vampire. Someone who cares about him, and who he cares for very deeply.

to quote, again, from the Little Prince:

"But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."

I have tried to explain the theme of freedom in the novel in this thread:

http://www.let-the-right-one-in.com/for ... ?f=4&t=993

While I don't disagree with any of that, I don't think it is as clear in the film as it is in the book. We really do not know what Oskar feels or thinks except through Kare's acting and while I agreed above there are a few revealing moments (the smile brought up by Wolfchild being one of them), the story as we see it in the film does not speak for itself on these issues. Also, human beings have many other feelings that are known to be quite close to love but still not quite the same: pity, for example. Pity can move you very deeply and make you act in a way that could be attributed to love, yet people generally want love and do not want pity and often they worry if what they take to be love may actually be pity.

(The similarity and difference between love and pity play a big role in "Les Enfants du Paradis". Baptise loves Garance but he pities Nathalie to the point when he believes he loves her and actually marries her, only to discover that pity and love are not the same thing).

One reason why love is so elusive is that there are many other emotional states that cause us to behave in a way that resembles it almost beyond the possibility of distinction. Yet people somehow know that pity, sympathy, gratitude, sense of duty, wanting to keep a promise, etc. are not the same as love, although of course they can accompany love or perhaps even turn into love. I don't think the story itself really identifies Oskar's feelings for Eli so definitely - all these things you mention are, I think, compatible with something other than love. I am more confident about such direct expressions as Oskar's smile or Eli's last look at Oskar in the fighting scene, since I cannot imagine anything but love that fits well with what we see (and yet, we know that this is just acting - which I think is the real beauty of this film).

[a_contemplative_life]

I would say that Eli is somewhat feral in the sense that although he might have come from a half-way decent family before he was turned, he was cast out into the world as a child, and subjected to enormous downward pressure because of his circumstance since then.

[gattoparde59]

I don't think the story itself really identifies Oskar's feelings for Eli so definitely - all these things you mention are, I think, compatible with something other than love. I am more confident about such direct expressions as Oskar's smile or Eli's last look at Oskar in the fighting scene, since I cannot imagine anything but love that fits well with what we see (and yet, we know that this is just acting - which I think is the real beauty of this film).

There are more direct expressions. Oskar hugging Eli behind the candy stand. Is that out of pity or love? Eli gets answers to questions such "you really like me?" Oskar asks Eli to go steady. Oskar hugs Eli after she bleeds in the entry way. Oskar accepts Eli's bloody farewell kiss. Oskar is grief stricken after Eli leaves.

I think Oskar's feelings are more than simple pity, because Oskar's experience gives him a bond with Eli. As Eli says, "I am a person just like you."

[Lacenaire]

There are more direct expressions. Oskar hugging Eli behind the candy stand. Is that out of pity or love? Eli gets answers to questions such "you really like me?" Oskar asks Eli to go steady. Oskar hugs Eli after she bleeds in the entry way. Oskar accepts Eli's bloody farewell kiss. Oskar is grief stricken after Eli leaves.

Yes, of course but even very deep friendship and love are not quite the same and obviously we see a gradual intensification of Oskar's feeling for Eli.

In fact Oskar's feeling for Eli visibly starts burgeoning after the "crisis" (the bleeding scene) and I would even go so far as to say that only then it really becomes real love. Even then, Oskar does not try to leave with Eli after Lacke's death and at this point he is resigned to Eli leaving for ever. So his feelings do change: they begin with just friendship and end up with love.

I have really never thought that they could be only pity, although in this scene when Eli tells Oskar that she is like him, actually I think we are witnessing more of Oskar's feeling of pity (being sorry for Eli) than love. (I don't think this brings any discredit to Oskar - quite the contrary). I think there is a kind of smooth transition between these different states and it makes the film rather subtle, and this is even made more complex by all the ambiguities about Eli's possible motives that Alfredson introduced.


It may even be that making this distinction between love and other love-like feelings is not necessary, perhaps its just different degrees of love. What I think is important for full appreciation of the subtlety of the film is that Oskar's feelings do change - even at the time of the sweet scene they are not nearly as intense as when he looks in her eyes in the swimming pool. This "burgeoning" of love, I think, is a very powerfully and realistically depicted - I think most people who have been in love would have experienced something like this, particularly first love. It rarely happens "at first sight", like in many simpler stories, usually t begins as something else and then at one point you just realise you are in love.

I think in Oskar's case this point is actually sometime between Eli's leaving and when he looks in her eyes in the swimming pool, not before.

Also, my doubts concerned not really how I see this (which has never changed - I have always seen it as love) but whether love is really the only explanation consistent with what we see. In other words, I wondered if we are not seeing this as love mainly because we wish to see it in this way and other ways of seeing it are equally valid. I still think that you really need to look closely in their faces and various subtle signs, to establish this beyond "reasonable doubt". (Of course, I am excluding any evidence you can get from the book, there is lots of that but its not available to someone watching only the film).

Eli's feelings I think are much harder to gauge because of her very controlled manner in almost all the scenes - even the bleeding scene, although there you can here some real passion in her voice as she tells Oskar "I am like you" . Only in the fighting scene you can really see her feelings nearly overwhelming her, which is why I think this is the most revealing and most important scene as far as Eli's love for Oskar is concerned.

[gattoparde59]

Yes, of course but even very deep friendship and love are not quite the same and obviously we see a gradual intensification of Oskar's feeling for Eli.

I think actually they are the same. Soldiers in war develop very intense relationships with each other. Is that love, or is that merely a deep friendship?

Eli really is a fascinating character and much of this has to do with Eli's feral nature. Eli is plainly uncomfortable about her relationship with Oskar, and yet she keeps returning to him in an obsessive manner. Actually they both keep parting and then returning to each other.

I think the inability to express emotions, or at least to express them in a way that normal people can understand them, is another "feral" characteristic. In your "most important scene" there is the wrestling and then they make up by hissing at each other.

[Lacenaire]

Yes, of course but even very deep friendship and love are not quite the same and obviously we see a gradual intensification of Oskar's feeling for Eli.

I think actually they are the same. Soldiers in war develop very intense relationships with each other. Is that love, or is that merely a deep friendship?

It's difficult to answer this, because "love" is so hard to define and quite likely we don't have quite the same idea about it. I my case, I ask myself the question: "would I give up, as a considered decision, my own life to save the life of another person?" I think in such a case one can speak of love (although even such things have been done out of "duty" - Japanese history and literature is full of such examples). But if I ask myself this question than the difference between love and very close friendship becomes clear - the answer is almost certain "yes", in the former, and certain "no", in the latter.

I think the inability to express emotions, or at least to express them in a way that normal people can understand them, is another "feral" characteristic. In your "most important scene" there is the wrestling and then they make up by hissing at each other.

Again, personally, I am not convinced of that. People are so different from one another in their ease of expressing emotions, both because of cultural reasons and individual differences. To most Japanese the way American habit of frequently and freely saying "I love you" to their spouses, children or parents seems probably more unnatural that hissing. And I can't imagine myself, when I was twelve, writing to any one "I really like you" the way Eli does in the film. So I cannot really see anything "feral" about this aspect of their relationship, as I certainly wasn't a "feral" 12-year old.