How Does Eli Know?

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metoo
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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by metoo » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:00 pm

Ash wrote:If Eli has the ability to project her thoughts into other people's minds she obviously has some power of telepathy. As shown in both the novel and film at the hospital reception and with Oskar. The issue as to why she didn't or chose not to act on this power at other times in the film is moot.

But I can't buy the idea that Eli simply stumbled across Oskar at precisely the right time in precisely the right place. For me that takes a far greater leap of logic than recognising the psychic ability she demonstrably possesses.
I see no traces of Eli having any PSI powers in the film. In the novel, though, he is able to transfer memories as well as general perceptions through a kiss. He also seems to be able to induce a feeling of generosity towards him in other people. Finally, he might have a soothing effect on people at short distances, as shown by the cancer woman's reaction. However, the latter can as well be attributed to the woman's need for comfort in a dire situation.

When attributing the power to foresee the future to Eli, one also need to explain why he didn't use it to avoid being kicked off Virginia by Lacke, or why he didn't foresee Lacke entering his resting place. That he wasn't able to avoid these situations is a strong indicator that Eli did not have this power.

Regarding the timing of Eli's return, it is disputable whether it happened at precisely the right time. A much better time would have been before Oskar entered the gym building earlier that night. Since Eli didn't manage to do that, I think it's a lot more likely that he arrived when he did on pure chance, rather than because he had foreseen what would happen to Oskar.

Furthermore, if (as I believe) Eli had no precognition of what was happening, or about to happen, to Oskar, any time of arrival would have been just as likely as the one when he actually did arrive. That coincidences such as this seem improbable is because we humans are prone to seek connections where none exists.
Last edited by metoo on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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EEA
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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by EEA » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:03 pm

These days I just don't worry or think that much about the movie or book. I haven't seen the movie in a long time. Last time I saw it it was five years ago.
But to me is simple why Eli returns. She feels compelled to. She has to check on Oskar, since he is the first person she cares about in a long time.
Before she just left and continue her old ways and look for her next caretaker and the the next town she would stay in. Now she has found someone that she cares about and that is why she has to check if he is doing ok.

Regarding Eli's powers I don't think she is like Dracula who can influence people's behavior and see what they are doing. There is that scene where she cries after she kills Jocke, she does not enjoy what she does.

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by sauvin » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:31 pm

Ash wrote:If Eli has the ability to project her thoughts into other people's minds she obviously has some power of telepathy. As shown in both the novel and film at the hospital reception and with Oskar. The issue as to why she didn't or chose not to act on this power at other times in the film is moot.
But I can't buy the idea that Eli simply stumbled across Oskar at precisely the right time in precisely the right place. For me that takes a far greater leap of logic than recognising the psychic ability she demonstrably possesses.
Telepathy doesn't necessarily imply precognition.

Some people have big brains, others not so much; some people have muscles on top of their muscles, where others barely have enough muscle to roll out of bed and stand up straight. If there really is such a thing as telepathy, I'd expect something similar to be true. Again with the "been around two centuries" assertion, if she possesses this ability, she's long ago mastered its use and come to know when and how to use it. The only time I remember it being suggested in the movie is where she asks the nurse-receptionist where her "papa" is because "he's sick" - and she's asking this of somebody who's already predisposed to helping as much as possible. The implication I'm getting is that her telepathic ability, if it exists, isn't very powerful. It can only be used to give people a tiny little push, just to help get them over mild concerns or slight reluctance.

And again, she tried to buy something from Oskar in her kitchen after admitting she's a vampire, and that didn't turn out well at all from her perspective. I imagine that whole scene was a novel experience for her; she had little or no relevant prior experience, no idea what the rules of conduct are, or what forces might be present and how they might behave. To say the least, she probably felt a bit unsettled. Under these circumstances, if she could, might not a feral child vampire tend to take the smash-and-bash, fight-or-flight Gordian Knot approach, seize him by the shoulders and say "look into my eye..."?

The movie doesn't contain the passages in the novel where she communicates her life story to him through a kiss, and where she shows Oskar what she really thinks of him, "bigger, stronger than he really is, seen with love". This might be something akin to telepathy, but there's no "tele" involved: apparently, she can really only get graphic with a liplock. For a very short while afterwards, Oskar had trouble disentangling his natural self from the parts of herself that communicated through that kiss, very strongly implying that during that kiss, the two were literally as one, with little to nothing to set the two selves apart. She used this kind of communication to convey what she couldn't convey with words, or found too painful to try to articulate, which means she can use this kind of communication to share experience and emotional weather and to convey matters of fact, but even in the novel, it's very far from established that she has any great ability to impose her will.

In the novel, her interactions with Haakan would seem to suggest otherwise. He's a paedophile, and she has his undivided attention, and she still has to do the song-and-dance thing to persuade him to run out and get her a jug of tomato juice. Here, too, if she had a strong ability to impose will, you'd think she'd just tell him "here, look into my eye" or "kiss me", rather than grudgingly bartering her body for food.

Wild leaps of logic are often what powers the various kinds of romance. If there were suddenly to be some kind of law that everything in fiction be well-ordered, neat, uncluttered, logical and consistent, horror would disappear overnight: the Alien franchise would gather up Jason, Freddie and Jennifer Aniston all in some huge boat, stock it with the collected works of Poe, Lovecraft, King, Koontz and Lindqvist, and they'd all go sailing off into the sunset to join all the long-forgotten gods of times gone byebye.

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by jetboy » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:20 pm

dongregg wrote:Ingmar Bergman said, "No form of art goes beyond ordinary consciousness as film does, straight to our emotions, deep into the twilight room of the soul."

JAL and TA created an experience that encourages some of the best heads, hearts, and souls -- ever -- to co-create a reality in which Eli becomes many Elis, each one fully realized. For me, this is what it is like to be "infected": as the story lives and grows in each of us, nurtured by our love for Eli and immersed in the total experience of the film, we can choose to enter into and add to this "twilight room of the soul."

WTI makes it possible for us to be enriched by each other's acts of co-creation, and I am so grateful to be a part of it. :wub:
Well put. Though its interesting to talk or debate, its more interesting that we have a reason to debate and have such wildly different takes on the same story.

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by jetboy » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:00 pm

metoo wrote:I really dislike your idea that Eli already from the start would have known that Oskar and the bullies would end up in a situation like in the bath house. For once it requires supernatural precondition, which I dislike because it makes Eli too powerful. Furthermore, it's inconsistent with other parts of the story, such as the episode with Lacke in the bath room.

However, I've got a second objection. What would it say about Eli if he knew what the bullies would end up doing, and still let it happen? In my eyes that's cruel. Cynically cruel. It's certainly not the Eli I see.
When I talk about Eli knowing that the bullies might retaliate, its not from any kind of mind power, its from a very in depth understanding of human nature. The kind that told Oskar to hit back. This ability wouldn't protect her from Lacke.

As for Eli not telling Oskar, if she knew that inside its really what Oskar wanted but also knew that he didn't have the life experience and therefore guts to make such a humongous decision on his own, then that makes it more alright for Eli to do. If Oskar thanks Eli for doing it then that makes it ok.

To me Eli is infinitely more powerful than Oskar in almost every way. She doesn't however abuse this at all and Oskar has complete trust and rightfully so.

To me Eli is like a child prodigy. She can beat anyone at chess or can play Mozart blindfolded but still likes Pokemon or whatever. She's both wise and childlike

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metoo
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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by metoo » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:29 pm

jetboy wrote:To me Eli is infinitely more powerful than Oskar in almost every way.
I see.

Personally, I favour a view where Eli is just a kid, a peer to Oskar, with only a few exceptions.
Last edited by metoo on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by JToede » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:57 pm

I know way off in left field, but I couldn't resist.
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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by cmfireflies » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:45 am

there's one theory that no one has mentioned yet...and it's a doozy.

What if the last third of the movie never actually happened? As I posted somewhere around here:

Starting from Eli asking Oskar to "be me a little while" what if the rest of the movie until the train was Eli hypnotizing Oskar as he looked into her eyes? What if every time a vampire hypnotized someone in the movies, the vampire was actually implanting false memories to ensure the human's loyalty? Eli's rescue at the pool is the fantasy that she inserted into Oskar's mind to ensure he would leave with her. This would explain the slight inconsistency at the pool scene and why it's from Oskar's point of view and ends with Eli's eyes...It would also explain the sudden homicidal turn of the bullies--and remember that Eli was looking at Oskar while he was at the pool before she left. The ending was Eli's story with her as the hero to win over Oskar.

I like this theory more than the death fantasy interpretation because it's more upbeat. Eli doesn't even have to be evil, she just has to be desperately lonely and realistic believing that Oskar would need an extra push to abandon his life to come with her.

Can anyone blame her for that? :)
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by epicfan84 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:56 am

cmfireflies wrote:there's one theory that no one has mentioned yet...and it's a doozy.

What if the last third of the movie never actually happened? As I posted somewhere around here:

Starting from Eli asking Oskar to "be me a little while" what if the rest of the movie until the train was Eli hypnotizing Oskar as he looked into her eyes? What if every time a vampire hypnotized someone in the movies, the vampire was actually implanting false memories to ensure the human's loyalty? Eli's rescue at the pool is the fantasy that she inserted into Oskar's mind to ensure he would leave with her. This would explain the slight inconsistency at the pool scene and why it's from Oskar's point of view and ends with Eli's eyes...It would also explain the sudden homicidal turn of the bullies--and remember that Eli was looking at Oskar while he was at the pool before she left. The ending was Eli's story with her as the hero to win over Oskar.

I like this theory more than the death fantasy interpretation because it's more upbeat. Eli doesn't even have to be evil, she just has to be desperately lonely and realistic believing that Oskar would need an extra push to abandon his life to come with her.

Can anyone blame her for that? :)
Very interesting thought. Never thought of it like that. I'm just not sure if that's the type of personality Eli has. I wouldn't think that Eli would have needed to do such a thing as Oskar already liked her, and their love was genuine. The need to hypnotize him and make her look like an even greater person would simply be unneeded. Great thought, though. It's definitely not outside the realm of possibility.
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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by cmfireflies » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:53 am

have to say i don't really believe in this theory, it's just that if the ending was a fantasy, I prefer it to be one created by Eli.
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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