Comparison between LMI and LTROI

[Phobos]

certainly, this has been discussed before, but i´m always happy to learn something new.

I stumbled upon this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoIJzsyTxJg

what do you think? I love the idea of these guys that the Eli-Oscar eye contact scene in the pool is to "shield oscar from all the carnage at the pool"
I have never seen it that way. And what do you think about their analysis in general?

[metoo]

what do you think? I love the idea of these guys that the Eli-Oscar eye contact scene in the pool is to "shield oscar from all the carnage at the pool"
I have never seen it that way. And what do you think about their analysis in general?

I think their analysis is steeped in the misconception that Håkan is the former Oskar. Their discussion of Oskar’s path to become a serial murderer is a result of this.

I don’t understand from where this idea originally came. Perhaps the film isn’t sufficiently horrrible, so some watchers felt the need to improve it by inventing this scenario instead of taking the film at face value: It’s about two lonely kids who seek friendship and a companion in each other. Nothing more, and nothing less.

That Eli seeks eye contact with Oskar to shield him from the carnage is BS. It is in the film to show the intense friendship between Oskar and Eli, call it love if you will, and their happiness of seeing each other again.

[Phobos]

Well, but you can´t deny the fact, that Oscar does have his dark side. Espacially in the novel this bescomes clear.
I think it is up to the viewer to decide if Eli and Oscar are going towards a happy ending or not. But Eli could in fact be Oscars "apokalypsens Ängel"

I think, it doesn´t matter if you see the rosy side or a dark ending, it does not affect their love which is geniually strong and true.

[metoo]

Well, but you can´t deny the fact, that Oscar does have his dark side. Espacially in the novel this bescomes clear.

Well, I see no fact here. Oskar is a genuinely compassionate character, he just lets off steam through those fantasies of his. Therefore, when he actually hurts Jonny he sees the pain he has caused, tries to comfort and runs for help. That’s the true Oskar. At least in the novel, in the film he behaves differently.

I think it is up to the viewer to decide if Eli and Oscar are going towards a happy ending or not. But Eli could in fact be Oscars "apokalypsens Ängel"

I think, it doesn´t matter if you see the rosy side or a dark ending, it does not affect their love which is geniually strong and true.

Well, the ending unquestionably has a bright and optimistic tone, but if Oskar’s future is bright or not is certainly up to the viewer. Personally I think it is both.

However, whether Håkan is the former Oskar or not has a paramount significance for the love scenario. But I think you agree on that.

[Phobos]

in the film he behaves differently.

maybe giving the story a dark twist was TA´s intention.
Interestingly there´s a very profound german review by a guy which obviously read the book and watched the film. And he stumbeld upon the same difference in Oscar´s behaviour.

Here it is:

http://wiki.badmovies.de/index.php/So_finster_die_Nacht

(please don´t care about the Badmovies thing, the reviewer is avid about LTROI)
Anyway. It doesn´t matter if Oscar is good or evil. It doesn´t make him less amiable and i see his story as tragedy

[dongregg]

Well, Phobos, that was an exhaustive review. Made possible by Google Translate.

Of course I disagree with the major thesis of the analysis section, that the kids feed on each other's psychopathology (and will come to a bad end?).

The reviewer is likely a horror fan first. But knowledgeable. A good read. Thanks.

[cmfireflies]

I don’t understand from where this idea originally came. Perhaps the film isn’t sufficiently horrrible, so some watchers felt the need to improve it by inventing this scenario instead of taking the film at face value: It’s about two lonely kids who seek friendship and a companion in each other. Nothing more, and nothing less.

I love Eli to bits and pieces so I am completely with you when you say this is about two lonely kids seeking friendship and companionship. However, I think that TA deliberately changed a few details in the book so that Eli's motives are a bit more ambiguous in the film.

Most notably, the bedroom scene: Eli gets in bed naked and says "don't look." This never happens in the book as I recall book Eli being quite open and playful with Oskar-like kids during a sleepover. They listen and wait until Oskar's mom goes to sleep and Eli even acts mock offended when Oskar's mom talks about "those people" next door. It's way more lighthearted in the book. In the film, it's more serious and the way Eli is looking over Oskar's back with blood on her mouth is almost tense. I think TA really played up the angle of "what if Oskar were to turn and see Eli's bloody mouth? Would that place him in danger?" The scene is framed that the audience sees that Eli may be dangerous and the tension doesn't dissipate until Oskar falls asleep and Eli trances her finger down his arm and holds his hand.

I understand why TA did this, it's a great scene with a lot of impact, but it creates the uncomfortable question of why Eli would act this way. Why climb into Oskar's bed and ask him to not look? Why not wipe her mouth beforehand? It's something that was not in the book that makes Eli more ambiguous: like she's not just a child, but something like a god giving arbitrary orders like don't eat this apple, don't open this box-it's like Eli in the bed scene is almost testing Oskar for obedience.

Also, without the internal dialogue of the book, the invite scene can be read as Eli saying to Oskar, let me in or I'll kill myself. That's really, really, manipulative and with the need for an invitation being one of the only limitations on a vampire's power, someone who is not a fan Eli may see evil intent.

Anyways, those are just my two cents. I'm personally wary of overstating Oskar's compassion because I think that to live with Eli happily, Oskar can't be too compassionate, or else the guilt may consume him. That's why the bullies had to try to kill him at the pool. The pool scene was the impetus for his withdraw from human society so he can be with Eli completely. That's the happy ending of the story, IMO.

[Phobos]

Of course I disagree with the major thesis of the analysis section, that the kids feed on each other's psychopathology (and will come to a bad end?).

It´s still so astonishing to me, how this novel/film leaves so much room for interpretation.
I won´t answer back anybody who sees a happy end in this story.

Maybe it´s just some kind of "german Angst" which affects me. But i´m worried how this all turns out as Oskar and Eli leave on the train.
This is why i´m looking forward on how JAL will handle this as he will probably return to Oskar and Eli in the future.

[metoo]

I love Eli to bits and pieces so I am completely with you when you say this is about two lonely kids seeking friendship and companionship. However, I think that TA deliberately changed a few details in the book so that Eli's motives are a bit more ambiguous in the film.

Most notably, the bedroom scene: Eli gets in bed naked and says "don't look." This never happens in the book as I recall [...]

It does happen in the novel. Eli tells Oskar to shut his eyes before entering.
However, there is no sign of Eli undressing. On the contrary, Eli and Oskar discuss Eli walking around naked outdoors, which Eli actually confirms, so I assume that he did. Or perhaps he flew, about which he says nothing in the novel, but next morning Oskar finds no traces of Eli in the snow outside his window.

However, I agree that Eli is playful in the novel and behaves like a kid during a sleepover. I also agree that the atmosphere is more serious in the film, with Eli having traces of dried blood in her/his face.

I understand why TA did this, it's a great scene with a lot of impact, but it creates the uncomfortable question of why Eli would act this way. Why climb into Oskar's bed and ask him to not look? Why not wipe her mouth beforehand? It's something that was not in the book that makes Eli more ambiguous: like she's not just a child, but something like a god giving arbitrary orders like don't eat this apple, don't open this box-it's like Eli in the bed scene is almost testing Oskar for obedience.

I don't see Eli being anything but a child in this scene, albeit a child who is also a vampire.

Also, without the internal dialogue of the book, the invite scene can be read as Eli saying to Oskar, let me in or I'll kill myself. That's really, really, manipulative and with the need for an invitation being one of the only limitations on a vampire's power, someone who is not a fan Eli may see evil intent.

I actually think that Eli is quite manipulative in that scene in the novel as well. He walks in uninvited, knowing what will happen and plausibly understanding what strong effect it will have on Oskar. But he was quite annoyed with Oskar's teasing, and decided to give some back. It was rather cruel of Eli to do it, I think, but Eli is just a child of twelve, and being that doesn't always make for the wisest decisions.

I'm personally wary of overstating Oskar's compassion because I think that to live with Eli happily, Oskar can't be too compassionate, or else the guilt may consume him. That's why the bullies had to try to kill him at the pool. The pool scene was the impetus for his withdraw from human society so he can be with Eli completely. That's the happy ending of the story, IMO.

Well, I have contemplated how Oskar, being genuinely compassionate, would handle living as a vampire. Alas, I have no answer. Perhaps the infection makes the actual feeding easy, but there would always be memories of it afterwards. He - and Eli as well - would have to deal with it. I imagine Eli saying to Oskar, over and over again: "Don't think about them. You mustn't think about them." Right after which Eli would start some funny game to distract Oskar.

But eventually Oskar would get used to it.

[Pissball]

I understand why TA did this, it's a great scene with a lot of impact, but it creates the uncomfortable question of why Eli would act this way. Why climb into Oskar's bed and ask him to not look? Why not wipe her mouth beforehand? It's something that was not in the book that makes Eli more ambiguous: like she's not just a child, but something like a god giving arbitrary orders like don't eat this apple, don't open this box-it's like Eli in the bed scene is almost testing Oskar for obedience.

Also, without the internal dialogue of the book, the invite scene can be read as Eli saying to Oskar, let me in or I'll kill myself. That's really, really, manipulative and with the need for an invitation being one of the only limitations on a vampire's power, someone who is not a fan Eli may see evil intent.

Anyways, those are just my two cents. I'm personally wary of overstating Oskar's compassion because I think that to live with Eli happily, Oskar can't be too compassionate, or else the guilt may consume him. That's why the bullies had to try to kill him at the pool. The pool scene was the impetus for his withdraw from human society so he can be with Eli completely. That's the happy ending of the story, IMO.

That attitude is seen in the Hakan + Eli relationship. Something I noticed is that Eli was already frustrated with Hakan at the beginning of the film, Alfredson added that Hakan ruined it in the first murder and we see a dominant and angry Eli, then we see her more pious when he asks her not to see Oskar and in the Hospital.

In the book, Hakan manages to get the blood (although he had f*cked it before if I remember it well) and the relationship begins to fall apart when Oskar enters, but Eli still does not have that authoritarian attitude like in the movie, like "I hired you to do this, useless" and Hakan is like "I'm sorry master, I will not fail again ". I don't see movie Hakan raising his voice to Eli and arguing in the way they do in the book, there is a clear hierarchy, which in the book at most is given by the pathos and sense of inferiority of Hakan himself.

In LMI, Reeves and Jenkins followed the same path, but Jenkins's character shows more rebelliousness, and seems to be something more "healthy" than the Hakan of Ragnar (who seems totally submissive to Eli and his task as guardian, in that sense is similar to his book copunterpart at the end) and also he might have some nostalgic romantic feelings for Abby, since he meet her as child.