No, I just want to be with you

[lombano]

Continuing on what I said about Oskar being the anti-Hakan, Hakan tries to starve Eli into sexual submission, while Oskar always willingly gives Eli a choice. Interestingly, when he asks Eli to go steady, and Eli replies 'I'm not a girl,' Oskar (with intermediate dialogue in the novel, immediately in the film) ultimately simply poses the question again - he has made a proposal of his own free will, and it is now Eli's turn to accept it or reject it of his own free will. When Eli asks if things couldn't stay as they are and Oskar says yes, again he is giving Eli a choice - he has expressed what he wants, and now Eli must choose freely to reject it or accept it. There is no attempt at compulsion. Oskar treats Eli neither as a chattel for his benefit, nor as a fearsome master, but as an equal (actually, they're not really equals, but to quote Romeo & Juliet, they're 'alike in dignity').

The reason I view Eli as the new Håkan is from the request to Oskar if he wants to be a vampire. It mirrors Håkan's request for more than copping a feel which Eli says with a resounding "NO!"

Cut to Oskar and Eli. Oskar is now in the enviable position of Eli with respect to the Eli's former relationship with Håkan. Oskar this time offered Eli something much more. A companionship. An emotional bond which Eli yearned for. Like Håkan, she increasingly endangers herself for Oskar. Like Eli, Oskar is "powerless" against this emotional yearning from Eli. Much as Eli is actually "powerless" against the insatiable lust of Håkan when he returned as a zombie.

Unlike Eli who rejected Håkan's pleas, Oskar responds positively to Eli's plea because this also his need as well. "I am all alone, do you want to know?" Oskar did not reject her and we too are glad he didn't. It will be so tragic. JAL has built up sympathy for Håkan while we looked at Oskar with dread in the first half and then this is reversed in the second half.

As much as we view her return at the swimming pool as selfless, we can view it as selfish as well. Eli wanted Oskar so badly as much as Håkan wanted Eli so badly.

Love afterall can be viewed as possession and belonging.

Hakan attempts to compel Eli to provide sexual favours; Eli gives Oskar a choice and respects his choice. Eli respects Oskar's freedom and dignity; Hakan, while I would say he feels some degree of genuine affection for Eli, is dominated by his lust and attempts coercion. Both Eli and Hakan are in a sense obsessed, but in Eli's case the obsession is at the core love, in Hakan's case it's at the core lust.
But there is a parallelism in what Hakan asks of Eli and what Eli asks of Oskar - they're both asking for something that is hardly good for the other, for their own benefit. Except that amid all the horror it could ultimately offer a benefit to Oskar - in effect, he is given a choice of damnation with his beloved, or a dubious 'salvation' alone.

[genie47]

Utterly tragic...

[lombano]

Not completely. They can still be together. A completely tragic ending would be if Oskar drowned at the pool.

[a_contemplative_life]

Lombano, it's fair to say that my head was spinning after I read some of your posts!

I am going to re-read them...

[lombano]

Er, I hope it was spinning in a good way...

[a_contemplative_life]

Er, I hope it was spinning in a good way...

Yes, you're right, in a good way. Just a lot of posts that took awhile to go through. Let me offer a few thoughts.

First, you state that guarding Oskar's emotional health seemed to be at the top of Eli's mind. I agree, and interestingly, so does Lina L., who says, when asked what Eli is like, that Eli was very kind and considerate, a person she would like to have as a friend (if Eli were real). I think that first, Eli just is, somehow (amazingly, you might say) truly just a considerate & thoughtful person when his stomach is not calling him and he's not distracted by thoughts of his own survival; and also, that Eli has a real concern that to "rock Oskar's world" too much, too fast, will send him scurrying. So, like so many of us, there probably is a mixture of motivations that drive Eli's conduct on this point.

With respect to how much Oskar is thinking about sex in his nascent relationship with Eli, I am not sure I would agree that it is as much on his mind as the totality of the posts on this thread would suggest. Frankly, I am struggling to remember how much I knew or thought about sex at 11 or 12, and honestly, I just can't recall anymore with any clarity what I did or didn't know at that age. I guess I had some health class in middle school where the mechanics of the process were explained.

But I do more clearly recall an age when I knew nothing about sex, but did know what it was like to be strongly attracted to a person of the opposite sex, and just feel a kind of powerful desire to merely be in that other person's presence; to hope or believe that I had some kind of existence in that other person's mind (hopefully, an existence on par with the existence that person enjoyed in my own mind!). That is, I guess, a form of love, albeit a sort of raw, unthinking, and emotional one that is not "mature" in the sense that we might experience as a much older person. I think, before I saw LTROI, I might have casually characterized this feeling as "puppy" love. But a new thought that has occurred to me since seeing this film is that maybe, Oskar's "puppy love" for Eli, because of the very unusual nature of their story, matured into something much deeper while completely bypassing a stage of sexual love that most of us would think would naturally follow a deepening relationship between a young man and woman.

So, what I'm saying, in perhaps a long-about way, is that I'm not so sure that Oskar was even thinking about "sex" when he asked Eli to go steady with him in that bedroom scene. I don't think Oskar had even had a girlfriend yet, so probably to him, just having someone he could even call his "girlfriend" was an enormous, incredibly important thing in his mind. That he and Eli were not just occasional friends, but that there was now some level of commitment to a more lasting relationship. Just to think that he did now enjoy a more permanent existence in the mind of someone that he was strongly attracted to and felt "love" for. And so, I think you're right when you say, "It's all courtship with Eli." But I would say, it's not a conscious decision to not think about sex--It's just that a raw, unexplored and perhaps not fully understood (to Oskar) feeling of love, a powerful attraction to Eli, may be the primary thing driving him, with, yes, a little natural curiosity about the Great Unknowns of the Opposite Sex thrown in for good measure.

I also interpreted Eli's hesitancy at Oskar's "go steady" question as an attempt to clarify just what Oskar was thinking about. Because if Oskar turned out to be much more mature that perhaps Eli understood, and was really talking about having sex, then clearly Eli needed to know that right now before agreeing to it. (I mean, for heaven's sake, the poor kid's lying there with no sexual equipment one way or the other. How's he going to explain that if Oskar suddenly turns around?) That's why, in the novel, Eli seems confused when Oskar doesn't want to press much further, and didn't even want to kiss. Oskar was happy just to know that he could declare Eli to be his girlfriend! And as it turned out, this was a happy medium for their relationship that seemed to please Eli as well.

The topic of what the future holds for Oskar and Eli with respect to a possible sexual relationship is, I think, an incredibly delicate matter, and I'm hesitant to even discuss it because there aren't many "normal" landmarks to guide us about what might unfold. Also, I think there's many of us in this forum (including me) who simply prefer to think of the Eli/Oskar relationship as a "pure" asexual thing. But let's venture down the road for just a moment.

I get the impression from many of the posts here and at IMDB that it's become almost a given that the relationship will break apart as Oskar gets older but Eli does not, particularly since, it is assumed, that Oskar will mature sexually but Eli evidently is not capable of sex. I'm not so sure I'm willing to jump on that bandwagon because I think it gives short shrift to just how good we are as a species to adjust to our circumstances and find happiness, even with tremendous limitations.

If sex is viewed as an expression of love between two consenting adults, and we are prepared to consider that Eli, as a person who's been conscious for over 100 years, might very well be "mature" in some sense of the word, I don't think sex between Eli and a grown-up Oskar is unimaginable. As ked101 says, "If Eli was willing to use sex to buy blood (so to speak) then he will no doubt at some stage consider sex with the one he loves - stands to reason. . . . If sex was to occur with Eli it would be for love - because . . . Eli will understand that this is what people like and use to express love." While I don't agree that Eli was ever prepared to "use sex" to "buy blood," I agree with ked's conclusion--that Eli can, at some level, understand the importance of sex in human relationships. He certainly understood enough about it to realize that the promise of physical contact could keep Hakan in some form of sexual enthrallment.

And who knows--since we are talking the fiction of a vampire anyways, who's to really say that even a vampire might not be able to experience some form of sexual gratification that doesn't involve killing someone? Remember, Eli was a human first, and a vampire second. And could not Oskar, if he truly loves Eli to the bottom of his heart, get over the fact that, "Gee, Eli still looks like a 12-year-old?" After all, he, more than anyone else, will come to know just how mature Eli really is. He will love Eli as a whole person: mind, body and soul.

To sum up, I guess I'm just saying that I'm not prepared to rule anything categorically out here. And if I could imagine a scenario that would permit my favorite couple to march happily into the future hand in hand, so much the better. That would make me happy.

[lombano]

As ked101 says, "If Eli was willing to use sex to buy blood (so to speak) then he will no doubt at some stage consider sex with the one he loves - stands to reason. . . . If sex was to occur with Eli it would be for love - because . . . Eli will understand that this is what people like and use to express love." While I don't agree that Eli was ever prepared to "use sex" to "buy blood," I agree with ked's conclusion

Eli was doing it to ensure his own survival; it was a sacrifice. He may be willing to do that sacrifice for Oskar, but it would be a sacrifice.

So, what I'm saying, in perhaps a long-about way, is that I'm not so sure that Oskar was even thinking about "sex" when he asked Eli to go steady with him in that bedroom scene.

To clarify, that's sort of what I meant when wrote it wasn't full-blown lust - Oskar wasn't thinking of having sex as such with Eli, but there was a physical attraction I think. Attraction that didn't reach lust levels.

If sex is viewed as an expression of love between two consenting adults, and we are prepared to consider that Eli, as a person who's been conscious for over 100 years, might very well be "mature" in some sense of the word, I don't think sex between Eli and a grown-up Oskar is unimaginable.

Eli has a lot of life experience, but that does not equate to the capacity to have sexual desires. Eli is neurologically prepubescent and hormonally asexual. Eli's understanding of sexual desire is like a man's understanding of pregnancy; possibly technically accurate, but it's something inherently alien.

And could not Oskar, if he truly loves Eli to the bottom of his heart, get over the fact that, "Gee, Eli still looks like a 12-year-old?" After all, he, more than anyone else, will come to know just how mature Eli really is. He will love Eli as a whole person: mind, body and soul.

He would love Eli, but would he be attracted in that way, especially knowing that it's something Eli cannot enjoy or want in itself? Precisely because he loves Eli I think Oskar wouldn't seek it if Eli couldn't enjoy it at least a little, sometimes.

I don't want to imagine Oskar as a Hakan, and honestly don't think it could work. I'd much prefer (and imagine it would be far more workable) if he satisfied his desires otherwise.

[Skoo]

"He tried to think. Hard. And he didn’t get it. That he could somehow accept that she was a vampire, but the idea that she was somehow a boy, that could be… harder."

There's no "agreement" between them that sex should be eliminated. Nor any mature rejection from Eli. There is no need for that, since she cannot have sex. JAL sure took care of that. They are gay, and there’s no need to beat further around the bush.

As for myself, I became a little bit more empathical, so to speak. What do you do if you fall in love with a girl and then she turns out be a boy? The quote above shows us that is veeery hard to go on. She’s a vampire, okay. But a boy? Oskar could kill JAL

But, come to think of it, is not that bad. It's just another thing which doesn’t let you sleep at night. After all, she still is the girl you fell in love with, just that now you know she has no vagina. She has no penis either, so the worst thing is only that you cannot have heirs. But that was out of the question anyway, since you don’t wanna have a baby-vampire. You only need to ignore the thought that she is a he. Add to that the fact that she is your "bloodyguard", as someone put it, the fact that you would probably not get another chick anyway, and the fact that probably no other person really cares about you, and you can deal with the fact that she's not suitable for reproduction.

A question still remains: why did Elias fall in love with a boy? Why not make Oskar a girl then? That JAL really needs some slapping

[lombano]

They are gay, and there’s no need to beat further around the bush.

Technically, it is a gay relationship - I at least view Eli as fundamentally a boy, since he has a boy's brain. I wouldn't say Oskar is gay, though - his attraction to Eli is a special case.

"He tried to think. Hard. And he didn’t get it. That he could somehow accept that she was a vampire, but the idea that she was somehow a boy, that could be… harder."

As for myself, I became a little bit more empathical, so to speak. What do you do if you fall in love with a girl and then she turns out be a boy? The quote above shows us that is veeery hard to go on. She’s a vampire, okay. But a boy? Oskar could kill JAL

But, come to think of it, is not that bad. It's just another thing which doesn’t let you sleep at night. After all, she still is the girl you fell in love with, just that now you know she has no vagina. She has no penis either, so the worst thing is only that you cannot have heirs. But that was out of the question anyway, since you don’t wanna have a baby-vampire. You only need to ignore the thought that she is a he. Add to that the fact that she is your "bloodyguard", as someone put it, the fact that you would probably not get another chick anyway, and the fact that probably no other person really cares about you, and you can deal with the fact that she's not suitable for reproduction.

Obviously the relationship was still worthwhile - interestingly, though Oskar finds it harder to accept Eli's gender than his vampirism, he rejects Eli at one point for being a vampire (when he doesn't want to see Eli after the basement scene) but not for being a boy. Rationally yes, it's not so bad in a way, and I don't think Oskar was thinking of having children with Eli, but still I find Oskar being horrified of Eli being a boy very believable and understandable, even though rationally Eli being a centuries-old cannibalistic serial killer is more unpalatable. JAL really didn't make it easy for poor Oskar.

A question still remains: why did Elias fall in love with a boy? Why not make Oskar a girl then? That JAL really needs some slapping

I think if Eli had met an Oskarina he would have also fallen in love.

[a_contemplative_life]

A question still remains: why did Elias fall in love with a boy? Why not make Oskar a girl then?

That's a very good question!

Part of the reason may be that Eli seems to be comfortable being either a boy or a girl. Since he's neither one with respect to reproductive anatomy, he has the "freedom" (Eli wouldn't use this term, but you get my drift) to be whatever way he wants, and for whomever he wants. Thus, in the film, Eli gradually dresses in a more feminine manner as the show progresses, presumably to please Oskar; whereas earlier, when he is with Hakan, he makes no particular effort to dress or act in a gender-specific way.

So, if you think about one aspect of Eli's character being that he is on the lookout for a special person to fall in love with (like Oskar), Eli probably doesn't care whether that person is a boy or a girl. Since he's a neuter, it really doesn't matter. Oddly enough, Eli's sexual neutrality is, I think, one of the underpinnings of why some might conclude that the love between Oskar and Eli "transcends" gender. The overarching theme of their story is that their love sort of bypasses gender altogether, and focuses on "bigger" issues, like being able to love someone even though they have a corrupt and deadly nature. (Another big reason is, I think, that they are so young--"just kids," if you will. Particularly Oskar, who we know is chronologically 12.)

So, if this is true about Eli, then you can begin to look at things from a statistical standpoint. What are the odds, in other words, of Eli encountering a boy who could love him versus a girl? Would a boy be more likely than a girl, on average, to accept an Eli? And you could break that down in all sorts of ways: likelihood of shared interests to establish an initial bond; who is more likely to be running around outside after dark; who is more likely to be bullied and therefore "in need" of a protector, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Someone versed in child psychology could probably provide more focus here. I really don't know what the answer is, but that might be one way to think about it. I'm sure there are others.

P.S. - I don' t think they're gay. A homosexual is defined as an individual characterized by possessing a sexual desire for those of the same sex. I just don't see a whole lot of "sexual desire" here. Even if there was, I see nothing to suggest that either Oskar or Eli have this type of sexual desire as their primary orientation. Like I said, I think Eli can go whichever way is expedient. And as for Oskar--I think from a "love" standpoint, he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, so to speak. (He'd say he was at the right place, of course.) In other words, his encountering Eli and falling in love with someone he thought at first was a girl "just happened." He fell in love with "her," and when--lo and behold--it turned out that "she" was a "he," well--he just didn't give a damn. He was in love, and that was that!