The Time Machine

[ElisLove]

If Eli and Oskar discover a time machine what would they do?
Eli return and avoid the terrible day with the Vampire Lord?
Oskar return and avoid be a laughing stock of the class?
Or they leave everything the way it is?

What you think?

[dongregg]

Well, I think the grandfather paradox has particular application to your options.

She goes back and warns young Elias to run away from home to avoid being turned. If he did, then Eli would not exist in 1981 and therefore couldn't go back in time and warn him.

If only Oskar travels back and warns Elias, when he returns to 1981, there would be no Eli. Eli could conceivably direct Oskar to do that -- as a way of ending her life in the knowledge that at least he had a chance at a normal life in his own century. Not way different from waking up on a beach and burning up, so it's hard to see any payoff.

Okay, Oskar goes back a couple of years to avoid being a bully magnet. How does he do that? Well, starts pumping iron earlier. Takes a self-defense class. Could help. But then Eli wouldn't feel sorry for him and, ultimately, save him at the pool.

My take -- They have a time machine. Oskar is hip to the grandfather paradox, so he an Eli create a schematic on a blackboard of all the permutations. They find that there is no satisfactory arrangement that would let them change the past in a way that would significantly and satisfactorily alter their current conditions.

They erase the board and start planning recreational trips to various times and places in history, making certain they would always arrive at night and have plenty of time to return to the present before sunrise. What fun.

But wait, couldn't they go back and nom people in the past, say, to Transylvania in the 1470s? What could possibly go wrong?

[ElisLove]

Well, I think the grandfather paradox has particular application to your options.

She goes back and warns young Elias to run away from home to avoid being turned. If he did, then Eli would not exist in 1981 and therefore couldn't go back in time and warn him.

If only Oskar travels back and warns Elias, when he returns to 1981, there would be no Eli. Eli could conceivably direct Oskar to do that -- as a way of ending her life in the knowledge that at least he had a chance at a normal life in his own century. Not way different from waking up on a beach and burning up, so it's hard to see any payoff.

Okay, Oskar goes back a couple of years to avoid being a bully magnet. How does he do that? Well, starts pumping iron earlier. Takes a self-defense class. Could help. But then Eli wouldn't feel sorry for him and, ultimately, save him at the pool.

My take -- They have a time machine. Oskar is hip to the grandfather paradox, so he an Eli create a schematic on a blackboard of all the permutations. They find that there is no satisfactory arrangement that would let them change the past in a way that would significantly and satisfactorily alter their current conditions.

Yes. They probably would never want go back and change your past. Or maybe yes?

But we coul ignore the grandfather paradox for the good of the creative process. - How were the possibilities now?

But wait, couldn't they go back and nom people in the past, say, to Transylvania in the 1470s? What could possibly go wrong?

Well, the Chaos theory could apply to it. They go back and kill the Hitler's great-grandfather thinking they are saving the Jews. But end up opening the door for a dictador much worse than Hitler.

[dongregg]

Yes. They probably would never want go back and change your past. Or maybe yes?

But we could ignore the grandfather paradox for the good of the creative process . - How were the possibilities now?

Well, the Chaos theory could apply to it. They go back and kill the Hitler's great-grandfather thinking they are saving the Jews. But end up opening the door for a dictador much worse than Hitler.

Yeah, I wanted to get the grandfather paradox out of the way first. In fiction, we don't have to accept that restriction. One reason being that we don't have a handle on how a real time-loop would function. In "The Region of Unlikeness," Rivka Galchen appeals to a calculation by Gödel that says you can't go back to when before your father was born and kill your grandfather. Something unexpected would intervene. That would make travel to the past a much safer (although tamer) proposition.

As for chaos theory, it looks good on paper, and no doubt small effects can lead to big, big effects. But it bumps up against systems theory. Systems persist because they have many, many pieces that constantly adjust to maintain homeostasis, regardless of whether a butterfly in the Amazon forest flutters its wings or not. My own term for systems persistence is convergence -- factors adjust so that the overall system converges on its original path and still ends up at the usual or expected destination.

Anyway, I like it that time travel would still leave a great wide world for the kids to play in, although I don't think it would be smart for them to go for a swim at night off Australia's west coast. Time-traveling kids eaten by a gigantic shark wouldn't violate the grandfather paradox and also probably wouldn't feed into a chaos scenario further down the time stream.

One convenient thing about traveling to earlier times -- say, twice a week -- would be that they wouldn't have to worry about concealing the bodies of their victims!

[cmfireflies]

that's interesting.

Like dongregg said, changing their own past would be like committing suicide for Eli, less so for Oskar. Eli the vampire is a completely different person than Eli the poor peasant boy. But would they do it? Well, I don't think so: given the events of Let the Old Dreams Die. Eli would never have turned Oskar if she didn't think they could live happily as vampires. So I don't think that they would change anything for themselves.

In other words, as sad as it is, I think that Eli is so far removed from her old life that she would look back on her past pre-turned self as a stranger, having accepted the reality of what she is centuries ago. Oskar is different, he is still very much the same person he was, but he actively chose to leave with Eli. I don't think he left with Eli to escape the bullies, I think that Oskar believes that life with Eli is better than what he had, even without the bullying.

So they would not change their situation for themselves, but that's not the end of the question: What about the thousands of people Eli has killed over the years? Given a chance to prevent being turned, wouldn't Eli do it simply for all her future victims? In the book, Eli wanted nothing more than to live, and with a time machine, a 17th century peasant boy could have lived a normal life. Eli's conscience may not have been strong enough for suicide, but I think that given a time machine she would prevent her own turning. It's like how Virginia initially went to kill Gosta, but when faced with the opportunity for easy suicide, she asked the nurse to open the blinds.

I think that with a practical time machine they will prevent Eli's turning, just as a way of "saving" all of Eli's future victims. I think Eli's logic might go something like this: "I don't want to die so that strangers may live, but I will change my life so that I never have to make this choice in the first place-I have faith that Oskar will be OK without me." (Because Oskar would not have ended up at the pool without Eli). So, Eli wouldn't kill herself to save future victims, but she may use a time machine to erase her own history of suffering and save the lives of her past + future victims. (This isn't entirely logical, Eli's past victims are "sunk costs," so to speak, but hey Eli's not an economist.)

Maybe before they blink themselves out of existence, they'd travel together and befriend a younger Oskar and make sure that he'll be OK without Eli. I mean, we are ignoring paradoxes after all.

[Ash]

Great posts from all above guys.
There's a minor but particularly powerful and very poignant scene at the beginning of the 7th Harry Potter book. Hermione Granger uses magic to "Obliviate" her parents' memories of herself.
She vanishes from the family photographs and her parents no longer know she ever existed.
I think that suicide would be a far easier choice than altering history to obliterate oneself from the memories of the ones we love and who knew and loved us, whether by magic or time machine.
And if Eli's conscience is not mature or strong enough for physical suicide, I don't think she'd opt for something even worse, metaphysical suicide from time itself.
"God. God? Why can't I have anything? Eli desperately loves and want's Oskar and he's not about to let the moral considerations of a trail of dead bodies get in the way of this one chance of happiness with him. After all, people have killed for far less.

[cmfireflies]

And if Eli's conscience is not mature or strong enough for physical suicide, I don't think she'd opt for something even worse, metaphysical suicide from time itself.
"

hmm, i think metaphysical suicide would somehow be easier...

[dongregg]

And if Eli's conscience is not mature or strong enough for physical suicide, I don't think she'd opt for something even worse, metaphysical suicide from time itself.
"

hmm, i think metaphysical suicide would somehow be easier...

Well, if somebody writes this, I hope it will be a lighthearted romp through time without all of our heavy weather. GK has such a good handle on history (metoo, too) that it could be a very atmospheric series of adventures.

I've toyed with time travel for the kids, but my story arc gets too complicated and technical, so it doesn't get written. The emphasis for it, though, is the Cindi Lauper cover of "Time After Time," which suggests the possibility of getting out of phase with each other, a thought that terrifies me for the kids.

[seigezunt]

I suspect that even if it meant losing Eli, Oskar would support the proposal to go back and prevent Elias becoming a vampire. To save your loved one from such pain, even if it meant losing them? I suspect his heart would be big enough to take that.