Hakan and pedophilia

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gattoparde59
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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by gattoparde59 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:58 am

metoo wrote:This, I think, is a question well worth contemplating. Eli is, perhaps, not as sweet and innocent as many on this forum like to think...
One clue I remember is the scene where Oskar asks Eli to go steady and Eli becomes very suspicious of what is being asked of him. A not so innocent boy of the world.

Whatever Eli does by way of pushing Hakan's buttons I think is a mixture of innocence and guile. There is another scene where Eli seems to think that his "relationship" with Hakan is the normal state of affairs. "Isn't that love?" or words to that effect. Oskar's early impressions of Eli are not "sweet and innocent," and he continually suspects that there is another darker Eli beneath the child-like exterior.

The way that Eli manipulates Hakan? Within the context of the novel, Hakan is the lowest form of humanity and gets exactly what he deserves from his juvenile consort. Not all that much different from child predators being attacked in prison. The movie Short Eyes from 1977 goes into this subject in gruesome detail.

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

Nisa

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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by Sam » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:21 pm

sauvin wrote:
So, now, back to a question I'd posed years ago in another topic: is not Eli maybe the greater monster because she coldly manipulated Haakan's greatest weakness, and has maybe done precisely this many times before?
I wrote in one of my earlier postings about the mechanisms that lead to such behaviour. Eli is mentally a kid, so we have to see her as a kid. A kid in such a situation is trained, her behaviour has an evolution. Usually that is done by an offender, in the case of Eli it's more like a society of offenders. But a kid is not able to fully comprehent what it is doing and is therefore not, or at least not fully, responsible of such actions. "Isn't that love?" Well, Eli doesn't really know. Children_are_not_to_blame. The question is how much of Eli is NOT a child and if that changes anything.
metoo:
This, I think, is a question well worth contemplating. Eli is, perhaps, not as sweet and innocent as many on this forum like to think...
I guess Eli did a lot which was necessary to survive. She agreed to being touched for example. I would need to read it again, but I had the impression that this was not THAT much of a big deal. The reaction could have been worse. She also offers kissing, when Oskar is sad, right?
gattoparde59:
One clue I remember is the scene where Oskar asks Eli to go steady and Eli becomes very suspicious of what is being asked of him.
I did not think about this before. But that fits all too well.

One reason more to be happy that Eli got Oskar.

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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by sauvin » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:07 pm

Sam wrote:There are still youtube-clips from the seventies and later, where leading politicians of that and later times freely told, that children have a really free sexuality and this is very beautiful. If a child sits on your lap and begins to open your pants... [...]. It is one of the big riddles of german history, why this party still exists. This is not a german phenomenon, I am pretty sure. Maybe that is what you meant by these canadian organisations? While the victims certainly suffered, the thinking behind it was not completely wrong. Sexuality morale of the past was never based on evidence but only on "Well, it's wrong because we all know it's wrong, right?". Maybe society had to learn it the hard way. I don't blame those idiots. I blame almost 2000 years of church morale. But that is what happend in germany. Pedophiles entered our green party, also other parties, and sometimes there were open debates about that sort of thing. "Should kids have the right to have sex". The whole old world collapsed, everything was questioned, sexuality was researched in every way, so of course this as well. Usually with good results. But sometimes... with terrible ones.
My anger towards the Canadian agencies has nothing to do with any kind of position or advocacy.

I'm stuck with more or less American perspectives on many things, including matters of sexuality. I've not observed that Canadians differ markedly in most such matters.

However, on the matter of child sexuality, as far as I personally am concerned: at the farmhouse, what happens between chicks probably needs to remain between chicks. The problem with chicks is that they're not knowledgeable or foresighted enough to post a sign on the entranceway stating that foxes may not enter. This is one of the major reasons the farmer needs to keep a Winchester handy. This metaphor fails where the matter of 'legal age' arises because for chicks, it's simple: when she starts laying eggs, she's now a hen, and when he starts sitting on fences and chasing away other roosters, he's now suddenly a rooster. We can't say that for human children when even people still living in stone age conditions recognise that the young ladies need to get to be just a little bit older before they'll have a reasonable chance of surviving childbirth, and the guys need to get to be just a little older, bigger and stronger before they can start worrying about bringing home the wild boar.

As I understand it, child sexuality may have bonbobo-like social (bonding) implication, but tends to be more a matter of curiosity. They know something is there, and are trying to figure out what it is. Other than simple exploration, there's no agenda or goal; it might "feel good" about the same way it can feel really good having your back scratched in those areas where you just can't reach, or having your scalp massaged, but there's no 'cresting' to seek. With adults, it's usually more a matter of sating a hunger, and this is where a child's sexuality collides painfully with an adult's.

There was a girl who'd been fondled from the age of six or so by a "family friend", said friend becoming her stepfather shortly afterwards. He started forcing himself regularly on her when she was still only nine years old, and this continued until she left home for good when she was seventeen. She had stretch marks on her body by the time she was fourteen, and told me she was more than happy to turn her daughter over for adoption because she didn't want to know who the father might have been ("because, you know, it'd be really sick if it turns out that ...").

Mom did the laundry; did she not see the blood?

There'd been beatings severe enough to break arms, legs, ribs and collarbones, and those aren't the worst of the injuries she'd sustained. Even though she took to locking and barricading her bedroom door, she felt she had no right or reason to say "no" to anybody to the point of casually "servicing" her boyfriend's friends when he told her to, and passing around pictures of herself naked to random strangers. There were drugs of various sorts, and she seemed to have a particular affinity for the ones that made her puke (trying to expurgate something, maybe?). She cut herself frequently, explaining to me once that when she could focus on the pain the knife, razor or piece of broken glass, she was able to ignore the other pains she felt, especially the ones that had no definite size, form or place.

I once had very persuasive reason to watch her city's newspaper obituaries very closely for most of a week. She'd told me she was going to try to get away for good. It wasn't the first such attempt.

She tried to tell the police. They didn't believe her, and did nothing but take her back home. She went to the child protection agencies, and they sent her to a mental institution to be sedated out of her mind, lectured at and subject to long stretches of solitary confinement. It seems that people tended to believe that her behavioural problems were the cause, and not the effect. She says that nobody tried to investigate her claims.

I suppose I could understand the police not having a good grip on what was happening. They have to handle every little thing that comes down the turnpike, from jaywalking to mass murder, and so can't be expected to understand any of it with any depth. Child protection agencies, however, by their very intended nature, can be expected to recognise that radical behavioural problems often stem from abuses within the home. I can't even begin to imagine how traumatising it must have been to be sent to that place after begging for help.

She's a sweet girl, and smart. Put herself through college in two foreign countries, and put herself through a marriage long enough to have a daughter and a son to keep. She's one of the most loving and attentive parents I've ever seen, and I have no outwardly visible reason to fear for her children.

She was very lucky, or extraordinarily strong. She survived her own personal hell where some of her friends who'd had to endure similar lives hadn't.

Canada didn't help her, and didn't help her dead friends.
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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by Sam » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:53 pm

Oh boy... It's good that she succeeded in her life. All too often that is not the case. While reading I waited for the sentence that she took her life.

Recognizing the cause and effect of things is a difficult matter. People need to learn that. If you take drugs and have a shitty life, then we know why that is the case, don't we? The drugs are evil. If you get beaten and behave badly, we know why you get beaten. And so on. I call those mechanisms. Whatever the reason, at some point you might get beaten, then you behave badly afterwards and give even more reason to being beaten. The offender can be sure it's "for your best" and he has "no other choice", even you might belief that yourself. So the victim doesn't just get abused, it might help abusing itself, while at the same time defenses against that are destroyed, maybe even for the future. The behavioural patterns they learn might even attract furture abusers AND they are attracted to them as well, which is the reason why they end up so often in destructive relationships. This makes so angry...

In my understanding this is a very complicated thing. I say that because I see how many people, even today, don't get that. You need "to think around one corner". It's not always the most obvious thing, that is the truth. People need to learn to think that way. It might be important to talk in schools about that. It's not less important than science. Usually you should assume that parents do that sort of thing, but appearently that is often enough not the case.

Learning this was difficult for society. What you describe is to my knowledge not different from any other country. Mankind learned such things not too long ago. And then you need some time to get this information into the heads of people, including people who work for children wellfare. No need to talk about the effectivity of such orgranisations. There is no excuse for delay. But sadly it's reality.

But hey... it's getting better every decade. At least I hope. There are other weird things, like pumping medication into children. Then again, maybe it's a good thing. I have no clue about this aspect of the problem.

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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by sauvin » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:21 pm

Sam wrote:I waited for the sentence that she took her life.
Near as bugger-it-all. What she took put her lights out for nearly three full days.
Sam wrote:If you take drugs and have a shitty life, then we know why that is the case, don't we? The drugs are evil
The jury's still out on that one. "Drugs are evil!", says the man in the three-piece suit, and the masses wave their hands high in the air and scream "Hallelujah!" A great many things in life, past and present, have been "evil", because men with sceptres, seals or gavels said so, and what's bollixsome is that these men are sometimes right.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? I sometimes cheat by saying unequivocally that the fossil record yields egg-laying reptiles long before the advent of bird-like creatures. Which came first? The drugs, or the crappy life? Did one necessarily cause the other? In the young lady's case, the drugs definitely came long after the crappy life started - but the crappy life itself isn't through any shortcoming on her part.

I agree that some drugs are inherently evil because they consume the people that consume them, but question the wisdom of metering them to people suffering through the terminal stages of painful illnesses, and I have severely pointy questions about the wisdom of directly destroying thousands of lives by sending users of certain "drugs" to prison for decades and millions of lives indirectly as a matter of collateral damage. There's a bigger picture to look at.
Sam wrote:The behavioural patterns they learn might even attract furture abusers AND they are attracted to them as well, which is the reason why they end up so often in destructive relationships. This makes so angry...
I wish I could find the post where I'd speculated that people tend to cling to what they grew up with. "There once was a girl"... hrm... who was thirty when I was twenty-five or so. Her boyfriend was my age, and abusive towards women. She once wound up spending a few days in the hospital after being taken to the OR with blood seeping out of orifices where blood had no good business seeping. After the two were forcibly separated (ahem), I believe she went on to Boyfriend Number Next, who seems to have been cast from the same mold as Boyfriend Number Previous.

Thing of it is, she did seem to have some kind of radar for picking out such men, and seemed to ignore men who'd have treated her well. "They're boring", she'd say, but I believe what she'd really being saying is "I don't understand the rules by which decent men play because I didn't grow up with those rules".

Sam wrote:Learning this was difficult for society.
Society learned anything? When did this happen? Why wasn't it in the news?
Sam wrote:But hey... it's getting better every decade. At least I hope.
Children don't necessarily learn civilised behaviour as they grow older. My impression is that they simply learn to be quieter and subtler about how they conduct themselves.
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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by Sam » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:19 am

The jury's still out on that one. "Drugs are evil!", says the man in the three-piece suit, and the masses wave their hands high in the air and scream "Hallelujah!" A great many things in life, past and present, have been "evil", because men with sceptres, seals or gavels said so, and what's bollixsome is that these men are sometimes right.
I have a problem with this general statement. You already mentioned it, it's just more complex than "drugs are evil". There is an incredible lot of drugs, some make you an addict fast, others slow, some make you an addict physically, others just mentally (and that can happen with everything), others don't make you an addict at all. Some are forbidden, some are forbidden hard, some are not forbidden at all, some grow in your garden and you just don't know that you could smoke them, some are forced into you by your physician or society. Some are found in nature, some are made by chemics and some are made by your own body. Some make you calm, others upset, some give you hallucinations. People who take drugs can be too young or old, or have the right age, they can be responsible or not. And not talking about the different reasons why people take them.

All that results in "Drugs are evil".

So, when it comes to people like you described, and they say about every drugs they are evil, then they MUST be right at some point. Question is what this is worth. Because at the same time lots of chances are destroyed. Some drugs are great for recreation, and one could argue if the government has a right to meddle, especially if it's not really dangerous. Some others are great for therapy and won't be used if it's forbidden, or it's allowed and people are scared by the media. My grandmother had a form of rheumatism, which was very terrible. Some muscle relaxing dope could have helped her, I'm convinced of that. But she was scared. Then the injustice that you force people to make lots of money for drugs they need and not rarely they sell themselves. And let's not talk about the war on drugs and all the implications.

We can argue about everything. If it should be legal or illegal, if yes what and for who. If illegal, we can argue about what should be done, how to prevent people from taking them and so on. But "all drugs are evil?" Just because you are sometimes coincidently right with something, doesn't make you right. If that is politics, I would be a great politican. Whatever comes on my desk, I just say 'yes'. To everything. In 50% of the cases I should be right. Sam for president :)
Which came first? The drugs, or the crappy life?
They go hand in hand. In Germany we call that "devil's mechanism", the one increases the other and vice versa like a never ending circle. Who cares what started first, the question how you fight that. And prohibition makes everything just worse. You don't even need to legalize it fully, just be lenient. That helps alot already. Stop being hysterical about it, tell kids the truth. They WILL find out if you lie to them. And then take the problem by it's roots. Try to fight poverty, abuse of any sort and so on. But sell that product to voters...

It's the same with pedophilia. It starts with realizing what pedophilia actually is. Different from what you hear in the media. But here you have the problem HOW you explain things. When starting this topic I had this problem. I wanted to say "Wait, a second. First: Hakan might or might not be a pedophile". And then someone would have said "Huh? He wants to have sex with children...?!" So I explained a bit more about it. You cannot sell this product without a big introduction. And who would listen to someone who "defends" pedophiles, drugs and so on.
Society learned anything? When did this happen? Why wasn't it in the news?
:lol:

Yeah, I know what you mean. But come on. We did learn a lot. Nowadays if there is a scandal about mistreatment of people... well it IS a scandal. 30 years ago it would have been mentioned at all. Yes, this learning process has lots of hickups and we often learn the wrong things. But in general it's getting better, since mankind learns how things work and sometimes bits of that knowledge "trickle down" to us stupid people. That is why we need to communicate about it. Because, unfortunately, the media doesn't really make its job in this case.
I wish I could find the post where I'd speculated that people tend to cling to what they grew up with. "There once was a girl"... hrm... who was thirty when I was twenty-five or so. Her boyfriend was my age, and abusive towards women. She once wound up spending a few days in the hospital after being taken to the OR with blood seeping out of orifices where blood had no good business seeping. After the two were forcibly separated (ahem), I believe she went on to Boyfriend Number Next, who seems to have been cast from the same mold as Boyfriend Number Previous.

Thing of it is, she did seem to have some kind of radar for picking out such men, and seemed to ignore men who'd have treated her well. "They're boring", she'd say, but I believe what she'd really being saying is "I don't understand the rules by which decent men play because I didn't grow up with those rules".
A real classic. There are many different elements, and they are all important to some degree. How much depends on the person of course. The pattern I spoke of was something recognizable in her behaviour to offenders. If she learned at some point, that her offender is less angry if she looks down in a certain situation, then she might get used to that behaviour. The next offender might be angry in a situation, and she uses the trained behaviour which makes the offender think that she is the right person for him, because she behaves like he expects or likes it. She on the other hand is trained a bit more, because the realizes that this behaviour works. That must not be a conscient decision. That is what I meant with "behavioural evolution".

It's even meaner. Because if a decent guy asks her out, he might notice the differences to other girls. Not everyone recognizes what that means, likes that or respects it. Lots of people are revolted by submissive behaviour. "Stand up for yourself, girl!". That decreases the chance to find someone else. And also a real classic would be why, if they have the decision between a decent and a not decent guy, they choose the latter. And that is where it becomes really complicated.

Furthermore I'd almost expect the brain playing a part in that. I guess it could be hardwired. Dunno...

Oh, another thing: Children for example react with more obedience towards mean "superiors". That is important, because in nature unobedient kids tend to die. When it comes to submissive people, they often remind me of kids. I would not be surprised if it's genetic as well. There are also references to leaders and led people in tribes. Just an idea...

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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by seigezunt » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:18 pm

Wow, this thread is making me uncomfortable.

I'm keeping my reactions to myself mostly, as I doubt they would be constructive to the conversation.

I'll just share one observation based on my experience.

Having worked as a journalist who covered courts for a while, I was left with the conclusion that there is an epidemic going on, and for all the charges of hysteria, not a real conversation.

I wrote about the court proceedings in a rural county for a few years, and it was appalling how much child molestation cases came up. To the point that we didn't write about them because that was all we would be writing about. And because of rules about not identifying any crime victims or children, one element got unreported: the vast majority of offenders were parents or guardians of the children. The random stranger for whom so much worry is placed on is rare. It's usually somebody in the house or known to the family.

I keep my feelings to myself on what the appropriate response to this is. But I will also add, Russell Banks has an interesting take on all this in his novel Lost Memory of Skin, which basically suggests that more and more people will be convicted of sex offenses as we become more and more disconnected as a culture and only connected through ersatz connections online.
"She can fly, she has amazing and horrifying powers, she isn’t exactly a boy or a girl, she can’t come inside unless she’s invited ... and she loves him. That’s enough."

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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by Sam » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:15 pm

I'm keeping my reactions to myself mostly, as I doubt they would be constructive to the conversation.
I am used to work with that and similar topics and I know exactly what can happen to victims. I can comprehend step by step HOW it happens. I know victims. I feel a cold anger.

I also think its important to seperate between your emotions and the objective part of the topic. But we cannot pretend like we are not human. We are evolutionary trained to keep our young safe and therefore most people are revolted by this. Who could blame them.
I keep my feelings to myself on what the appropriate response to this is. But I will also add, Russell Banks has an interesting take on all this in his novel Lost Memory of Skin, which basically suggests that more and more people will be convicted of sex offenses as we become more and more disconnected as a culture and only connected through ersatz connections online.
Can you tell more about that theory?

By the way, you have a personal message for a week and you didn't read it yet. Or whatever happend. It's still in my out-box.

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Re: Hakan and pedophilia

Post by seigezunt » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:45 pm

[quote="Sam"

Can you tell more about that theory?
[/quote]

I'm not sure I can articulate it very well at this point, and it's partly my own conclusions from what appears to be a theory set out in the context of a novel, so it's not science-based.

My takeaway from the novel is that part of what's at issue is, is that we've entered an age where we have an illusion of privacy and intimacy with countless strangers, and easy access to whatever images we fancy. The protagonist of the novel is possibly the lonliest character I've seen in fiction before I read LTROI. The Kid is a kind of tragic figure, and I hesitate to say why exactly because you really really should read the book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/15/books ... -skin.html
"She can fly, she has amazing and horrifying powers, she isn’t exactly a boy or a girl, she can’t come inside unless she’s invited ... and she loves him. That’s enough."

--Andrew O'Hehir, Salon.com


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