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[steviej]

Hello

While I disagree with that, it is true that you do learn more about the interior lives of the characters.

What do you disagree with gatto? That the book tells you more about the feelings of the characters? I have just watched the first five minutes of the film where Hakan kills in the forest - the film makes no attempt to demonstrate how hard this was for Hakan and how much he hated doing it. In the book we have the whole passage with Hakan on the subway train wishing that he didn't have to do it.

[rgh]

Why does Hakan make you sympathetic to Elias? Elias "rescues" Hakan from his miserable life and turns him in to a murderer and then he turns Hakan in to another monster - a zombie! Why the sympathy for this?

I think Håkan in the novel brings more sympathy for Eli because we see that she has been subjected to the yearnings of a pedophile and it is suggested that he is not the first or worst that she has endured.

Yes, she uses him to procure blood, but she is still just a child in a very unfortunate situation. Given enough time, I believe Håkan would have started to give into his desires with other children. It's not like she turned an upstanding human into a monster. She helped turn a monster into a worse(?) monster.

As far as crating zombie Håkan, it's not like she intentionally did this.

[steviej]

Not sure I agree rgh. You say " Yes, she uses him to procure blood, but she is still just a child in a very unfortunate situation"
I think Elias preys on people's weaknesses in order to make them her servant. Elias cannot survive long term without a servant. She leads Hakan on, he is desperate for even a "caress" as JAL says. I would not describe Elias as just a child. I believe Elias is desperate to survive and manipulative to achieve that. She will now manipulate Oskar in the same way.

[a_contemplative_life]

I think Hakan is a difficult person to judge, and that JAL made him this way on purpose. He had predilections toward pedophilia, and had a collection of child porn, but seemed to balk when it came right down to having sexual experiences with real children. It seemed as if he would at those times heel to his conscience and pull back, never really quite giving in to his forbidden urges. One also gets the impression that at those moments, he was filled with a kind of self-loathing. Someone found out about his porn and as a result, he lost his job and his home, burned through his retirement savings and would up a homeless drunk. Then Eli came along and more or less recruited him, giving him "dignity" and occasionally, "tenderness." Unfortunately for Hakan, Eli was his ideal fantasy come true--a person whom he perceived as being much older than he was (i.e., an "adult") in a child's body. This, in his mind, removed the stigma of his pedophilic lust for Eli, since he could think of Eli as a grown-up. Once that impediment was removed, there was nothing in his conscience to check his desires/impulses, as there had been before in his encounters with "real" children, and he was free to lust away after Eli, rationalizing it in his mind as genuine love for his "beloved." Caught in this situation, he found it in himself to do the worst kind of thing for "one night" with Eli. Yet still, he could have left Eli at any time. He, in essence, made himself his own prisoner.

[steviej]

I agree with you a c l until you say " Caught in this situation, he found it in himself to do the worst kind of thing for "one night" with Eli. Yet still, he could have left Eli at any time. He, in essence, made himself his own prisoner"
He cannot leave at any time. Because of Elias' power of manipulation and that is why he continues to commit the atrocities for his beloved. The price he pays to be lifted from his miserable life is servitude to Elias. The price Oskar pays to be rescued from the bullies will be the same!

[rgh]

Eli is a survivor, no disagreement there. She has been forced to live an awful existence and has had to do what was necessary to survive, but she has paid a price to these helpers. They use each other. Another thing to remember is that Eli, despite having lived 200+ years, is only 12. Håkan is an adult. He made his own choices that lead him here.

As for Oskar, the topic of Eli manipulating Oskar has been explored here a few times. Among the many reasons we can say that Eli doesn't, is that another child is a terrible choice for a helper. Eli would have to care him for years before he would be helpful. I think that after Let the Old Dreams Die, this can be put to rest. It simply isn't the case. JAL has also confirmed that Eli doesn't manipulate Oskar with his posts here.

[a_contemplative_life]

I agree with you a c l until you say " Caught in this situation, he found it in himself to do the worst kind of thing for "one night" with Eli. Yet still, he could have left Eli at any time. He, in essence, made himself his own prisoner"
He cannot leave at any time. Because of Elias' power of manipulation and that is why he continues to commit the atrocities for his beloved. The price he pays to be lifted from his miserable life is servitude to Elias. The price Oskar pays to be rescued from the bullies will be the same!

I do not see any mysterious "power of manipulation" in the novel. I do think that there are times at which Eli seems to "suggest" an idea into the heads of some characters, like the woman with cancer who deflates at his touch, or the hospital receptionist who suddenly thinks she needs to give something to Eli. But I don't think this equates to a master/slave relationship. I think to JAL, that would have been too cliche; too easy. To me, the handful of passages showing the dialogue between Eli and Hakan suggest more of a quid pro quo relationship, masquerading under mutual self-delusion that what they have is "love." Hakan is willing to hang in there and endure Eli's moments of coldness because he "wants it" real bad. Witness the scene when he waits for Eli to come out of the shower and saliva "spurts into his mouth" at the sight of Eli's naked body. The most beautiful thing in the world, an arm's length away, etc. Perhaps had Eli been more mature, he would have been able to step back and question whether his decision to bring Hakan home was in Hakan's best interests. But if we are proceeding under the assumption that Eli is an eternal 12-year-old, and not a grown-up in a child's body (which is what JAL tells us in the text), then I think, in fairness, that the burden falls more squarely on Hakan's shoulders, as a man in his mid-40's, to realize what is or is not good for him. At any time during the day he could have departed and could have been hundreds of miles away by the time Eli awoke. But he never did because, to put it bluntly, he was obsessed.

[a_contemplative_life]

I have to add that for several reasons, I completely disagree with the notion that Eli manipulates Oskar "in bad faith," if you will. As a caveat, I am not denying that Eli might do things to make Oskar like him, and want to be with him. I think that might be expected by any kid seeking a friend. But I do take issue that Eli acted with an ulterior motive to recruit Oskar to be his next "Hakan." And please forgive me if I mix and match novel and film; they have tended to become blurred in my mind over time.

Eli met Hakan when he was already an adult. A grown man and a schoolteacher who had lost his job and his home because he was a pedophile who'd been discovered buying child porn. Eli found him sitting on a park bench near a playground, drinking himself to death, and told him he was coming with her. In his own twisted way, he loved Eli, calling her his "beloved" but the novel makes clear that what he really loved was Eli's body. It was very much a "mutual use" relationship masquerading as "love":

Hakan bent his head, rested his forehead on his knees. The splashing from the bathroom had stopped. He couldn't go on like this. He was about to explode. From desire, from jealousy.
The bathroom lock turned and the door opened. Eli was standing in front of him. Completely naked. Pure.

"Oh-you're sitting out here."

"Yes. You're beautiful."

"Thank you."

"Will you turn around for me?"

"Why?"

"Because ... I want you to."

"No; why don't you get up and move?"

"Maybe I'll say something .. . if you do this for me."

Eli looked quizzically at Hakan. Then turned 180 degrees.

Saliva spurted into his mouth, he swallowed. Looked. A physical sensation of how his eyes devoured what was in front of them. The most beautiful thing there was in the world. An arm's length away. An endless distance.

"Are you ... hungry?"

Eli turned around again.

"Yes."

"I'll do it for you. But I want something in return."

"What is it?"

"One night. All I want is one night."

"OK."

"I can have that?"

"Yes."

"Lie next to you? Touch you?"

"Yes."

"Can I. .."

"No. Nothing more. But that. Yes."

"Then I'll do it. Tonight."

Thankfully for us, this never actually happens, because he gets caught first, but you get the picture. Pretty sick.

So Eli meets Oskar and the first words out of her mouth are, "we can't be friends." Sincere? Or the first groundwork for a trap? At this point, Hakan hasn't screwed up yet. What's the motive for duplicity?

At the second meeting with Oskar, you can see Eli is very hungry. She takes an interest in the Rubik's Cube. He offers it to her. She initially refuses. Another act of duplicity? Did she know in advance that Oskar would ask again, offering it to her for just a day or so?

Third encounter. She's solved his cube. She's taken a bath. He offers her the Cube again when he finds out she doesn't have a birthday. She refuses. "It's yours." But when he asks her to show him how to solve it, she starts to show him. Another act of duplicity? Or just a lonely person who has a skill (puzzle solving), who someone else demonstrates an interest in? Seems to me we are seeing friendship, not manipulation.

Fourth encounter. Morse code and she tells him to fight back against the bullies. Seems like good advice to me; I'd have told him the same thing. And she doesn't just say it, and then walk away ... she offers to help if he needs it. Again, I say this is friendship, and it's deepening. Oskar wants to communicate with her, and she wants to communicate with him.

Fifth encounter. The kiosk and the candy. Now if you are going to say that she tried the candy just to manipulate Oskar into feeling sorry for her, you are making her out to be pretty devious. Isn't it equally plausible that she just doesn't want to disappoint him, and hurt his feelings by refusing his offer of something to share? Now look at the expression on her face when Oskar hugs her. Tell me that's evil. He can't see her face, remember...why not a malicious smile? She's hit a home run, right? Instead, she's as stiff as a board at first, and you see confusion. She can't understand what it means to get a real hug. That's how bad things are for her.

Hakan goes out the last time. Shows her the acid. She says, "maybe you shouldn't." He asks her not to see "that boy" tonight. She's sorely tempted at the wall, but she doesn't. He goes out and burns half his face off. Now he's in the hospital and in custody. It's the end of the line and he knows it. After he opens the window, watch his head--he nods. For him, it's the last act of loyalty. He wants her to kill him:

Hakan reached his arm, his healthy hand, through the window toward Eli. Eli pulled herself up onto the window ledge, took his hand between hers and kissed it. Whispered: "Hello, my friend."

Hakan nodded slowly to let her know he could hear her. Took his hand out of Eli's and stroked her over the cheek. Her skin like frozen silk.

Everything came back.

He wasn't going to rot in some jail cell surrounded by meaningless letters. Harassed by other prisoners for having committed the-in their eyes-worst of all crimes. He would be with Eli. He would ...

Eli leaned close to him, curled up on the windowsill.

"What do you want me to do?"

Hakan moved his hand from her cheek and pointed to his throat.

Eli shook her head.

"That would mean I'd have to kill you . . . after." Hakan took his hand from his throat, brought it back to Eli's face. Rested a finger for a moment on her lips. Then pulled it back. Pointed once more at his throat.

Sixth encounter-the bedroom scene. Tell me, where do you see manipulation? If she were trying to recruit Oskar, why would she hesitate when he asks her to go steady? Wouldn't she just say, "why of course we can go steady, Oskar." Why did she hesitate? I think she's worried about what Oskar means by "go steady." Could he be looking for sex, just like Hakan? Eli's looking for love, not sex (as is Oskar). Eli just really can't understand that all Oskar really wants is a committed relationship. Once Oskar clarifies that "going steady" just means that you don't do anything "special" and that things are just the same, she agrees. Again, you really have to paint her as totally evil to be construing this as one more point in a grand scheme of manipulation. Again, I think we are being shown a very lonely person who hates what she is, and has found someone who seems to accept her without a lot of questions. Eli wants to be physically close to this person. Eli is falling in love with Oskar. Doesn't the music convey this? The hand-holding? But she knows she will have to leave soon; hence the note.

So Oskar unexpectedly slices his hand open and now Eli is forced to reveal herself to him. She probably figured after that episode that she'd never see him again. But when Oskar comes back to her apartment, what's she do? Shuts him out. Puts a door between them. Why? She's scared, that's why.

"Are you a vampire?" The big question. The biggest question.

"I live off blood--yes." Now he knows. But Oskar still doesn't run away, just keeps asking questions. "Are you dead?" "No--can't you tell?" Didn't that exchange make you smile?

"Are you old?"

"I'm 12--but I've been 12 for a long time." So, what we're dealing with is someone who's perpetually 12. In the novel this is explained in greater detail:

"So you are old, inside. In your head."

"No, I'm not. That's the only thing I still think is strange. I don't understand it. Why I never ... in a way... get any older than twelve."

Oskar thought about it, stroking the arm of his jacket.

"Maybe that's just it, though."

"What do you mean?"

"I mean ... you can't understand why you're only twelve years old, because you are twelve years old."

Eli is not a grown-up person in a child's body. Eli is a frozen child.

I just do not see manipulation of Oskar in this part at all. Oskar clearly has the upper hand; he has the moral authority. She tries to offer him money so he'll stay, but he accuses her of stealing it. Check out the imperious look he gives her right before she lets him leave. She's not fooling anyone.

Ninth encounter--Eli comes to Oskar's apartment. She obviously wants to make amends. But instead, Oskar acts like a jerk; won't give her a clear invitation to come in. So she walks in anyway and begins to bleed. Unless he clarifies the invitation, she presumably will bleed to death. She's literally put her life in his hands. Did she plan this? Did she know in advance that Oskar would act this way? Was it one more stepping stone in making Oskar her slave? Or was it Eli showing Oskar how much she trusts him?

"Be me a little." The scene is hard to interpret because we don't know exactly what passed between them after Eli said this. (In the novel, Eli reveals his memory of being neutered and bitten by the vampire nobleman.) I think what motivated Eli to do this was a desire for understanding. Oskar is finally keyed into what Eli is (he said "who are you?" at the beginning of the conversation), and his attitude initially is, "you kill people--ugh." I think Eli wants Oskar to understand that she doesn't kill people because she wants to, but because she has to, in order to live. This is entirely consistent with the remorse we see after she kills Jocke at the beginning of the film. I wouldn't say she's trying to morally justify herself, but she does seek at least some understanding from him that she is not doing these things because she wants to, or just because enjoys seeing people die. She's been forced into it. She initially points to Oskar's desire to kill for revenge (if he could) as a way to demonstrate that her motivation is more morally justifiable than his. But then, by breaking things down to their most basic level ("you want to live--just like me"), she shows Oskar that from this perspective, they aren't much different. Thus, it leads them to a deeper understanding of each other.

In the novel there is a point shortly before Eli leaves where she is alone in her apartment, thinking about where she will have to go. She screams up at the ceiling, "I don't want to!"

The dusty cobwebs sway slightly in his exhalation. The sound dies in this sealed room. Eli puts his hands up on his face, presses his fingers against his eyelids. Feels it in his body, the approaching sunrise, like a worry. He whispers:

"God. God? Why can't I have anything? Why can't I..."

It has been brought up many times before, this question.

Why can't I be allowed to live?

Because you should be dead.

When Eli asks this question, obviously she does not mean "live" in the literal sense. Eli is clearly "alive." "Live" means, instead, to be free to be the person she really is; but the curse of her vampirism does not permit her to be this genuine person. In the movie we are shown the "old Eli," and are left to imagine how much she has suffered because of her curse, because of her inability "to live."

When Eli tells Oskar "you want to live, just like me" she is pointing out to Oskar that he suffers from the same curse. Oskar is filled with hate and violence because the bullies have not allowed Oskar "to live." They are killing his soul, just like Eli's being a vampire is killing her soul. Oskar is becoming a monster, just like Eli and his desire to kill is much less morally justifiable than Eli's.

I think where the manipulation theory really breaks down is after Lacke is killed. Oskar demonstrates clearly that he is not really a killer; all Lacke has to do is turn and look at him, and Oskar backs down. Then after Eli does her business, he drops his knife. When real violence rears its ugly head, he wants no part of it. Now if you're Eli and you are hoping to recruit Oskar, wouldn't this be the perfect time to ask him if he'd go with you? He's a witness to a murder; he's scared. There's the opening. Instead, Eli tells him that she has to go away. And she does; we see the taxi and her empty apartment.

The pool scene. Saving your best friend's life now becomes the crowning act of manipulation. Okay, well I'll tell you what: the next time you see someone drowning me in a pool, feel free to be manipulative. I'd rather live and be manipulated, then die because I have a friend who doesn't follow through on her promise. And don't tell me that the look they exchange at the end isn't anything but the purest expression of love ever committed to film. No way is there bad faith in that.

[metoo]

I have to add that for several reasons, I completely disagree with the notion that Eli manipulates Oskar "in bad faith," if you will. [...] And don't tell me that the look they exchange at the end isn't anything but the purest expression of love ever committed to film. No way is there bad faith in that.

Very well said (typed). I agree to all of your posting!

[PeteMork]

I have to add that for several reasons, I completely disagree with the notion that Eli manipulates Oskar "in bad faith," if you will. [...] And don't tell me that the look they exchange at the end isn't anything but the purest expression of love ever committed to film. No way is there bad faith in that.

Very well said (typed). I agree to all of your posting!

Me too! ACL certainly has a way with words, doesn't he?