In which part we do find out about Eli?

[a_contemplative_life]

I asked the question because I don't consider myself a reliable judge of gender. Interesting that you chose the bedroom scene; apart from Lina's hands, which I agree are somewhat masculine, I always thought of Lina seeming very feminine in that part. I agree with your take on the pre-basement scene when Eli is wearing the coat.

I guess if I had to choose 1 scene, it would be the part immediately after Eli bleeds in Oskar's apt., in the dialogue that begins with Oskar asking, "Who are you?" I think Lina looks boyish with the bloody face and the tone of Elif's voice.

[dongregg]

I asked the question because I don't consider myself a reliable judge of gender. Interesting that you chose the bedroom scene; apart from Lina's hands, which I agree are somewhat masculine, I always thought of Lina seeming very feminine in that part. I agree with your take on the pre-basement scene when Eli is wearing the coat.

I guess if I had to choose 1 scene, it would be the part immediately after Eli bleeds in Oskar's apt., in the dialogue that begins with Oskar asking, "Who are you?" I think Lina looks boyish with the bloody face and the tone of Elif's voice.

Yeah, I can see it that way, too. A lot of the film is that way anyhow--left to the eye of the beholder.

Overall, though, finding masculine traits for Eli/Lina is a stretch. I wish JAL and TA had either been more explicit about the gender issue or had just left it out. I take it that LMI left it out. (Haven't seen LMI. Probably won't. Too much stuff ahead of it in the queue.) BTW, even though I think Elif's dubbing doesn't particularly masculinize Lina, I love the dark quality of it.

Speaking of gender, my love for Eli finally bubbled over into a fan fiction. It is somewhere in the great bit bucket in the sky waiting to be moderated. It is called, "When I Am With You," and the gender issue is part of the story.

[a_contemplative_life]

I asked the question because I don't consider myself a reliable judge of gender. Interesting that you chose the bedroom scene; apart from Lina's hands, which I agree are somewhat masculine, I always thought of Lina seeming very feminine in that part. I agree with your take on the pre-basement scene when Eli is wearing the coat.

I guess if I had to choose 1 scene, it would be the part immediately after Eli bleeds in Oskar's apt., in the dialogue that begins with Oskar asking, "Who are you?" I think Lina looks boyish with the bloody face and the tone of Elif's voice.

Yeah, I can see it that way, too. A lot of the film is that way anyhow--left to the eye of the beholder.

Overall, though, finding masculine traits for Eli/Lina is a stretch. I wish JAL and TA had either been more explicit about the gender issue or had just left it out. I take it that LMI left it out. (Haven't seen LMI. Probably won't. Too much stuff ahead of it in the queue.) BTW, even though I think Elif's dubbing doesn't particularly masculinize Lina, I love the dark quality of it.

Speaking of gender, my love for Eli finally bubbled over into a fan fiction. It is somewhere in the great bit bucket in the sky waiting to be moderated. It is called, "When I Am With You," and the gender issue is part of the story.

Your FF was approved and I opened a thread for you.

[Crow-453]

Personally, I see Eli identifying as non-binary, with a preference to feminine pronouns. It's how I write her, in any case.

[Elias Eriksson]

Yeah. The problem lies that brazilian portuguese (my language too) does not have a word that indicates non gender. It's either feminine or masculine, no exception. And Hakan knows that Eli is a boy, so it would be weird if he talked to her as a she. (even tho i still call him she.) It didn't came as such a shock to me because i kind of knew he was not a girl because i went for a search to understand the genitalia scene. Was still amazing to read it because i wanted to know how Oskar would react to it, which was not shown in the movie.

[metoo]

[...] how Oskar would react to it, which was not shown in the movie.

Well, it was, in a way. Oskar looks shocked when he peeps through the door. Why would that be if he just had seen what he most likely expected, a naked girl?

That said, there is no sign that movie Oskar ever realised Eli's true gender. Actually, there is nothing that suggests that film Eli's gender wasn't female. The crotch scar could have been inflicted to a child of any gender.

Novel Oskar, on the other hand, was explicitly and very effectively told that Eli had once been a complete boy, first by Eli saying that he once had had a willy, and then through the memory sharing. Oskar's conclusion was that Eli still was a boy.

Regarding Eli's own view, the novel suggests he thought of himself as male. There are some paragraphs towards the end that are presented from Eli's view, such as where he confronts zombie Håkan, and there male pronouns are consistently used.

[Elias Eriksson]

[...] how Oskar would react to it, which was not shown in the movie.

Well, it was, in a way. Oskar looks shocked when he peeps through the door. Why would that be if he just had seen what he most likely expected, a naked girl?

That said, there is no sign that movie Oskar ever realised Eli's true gender. Actually, there is nothing that suggests that film Eli's gender wasn't female. The crotch scar could have been inflicted to a child of any gender.

Novel Oskar, on the other hand, was explicitly and very effectively told that Eli had once been a complete boy, first by Eli saying that he once had had a willy, and then through the memory sharing. Oskar's conclusion was that Eli still was a boy.

Regarding Eli's own view, the novel suggests he thought of himself as male. There are some paragraphs towards the end that are presented from Eli's view, such as where he confronts zombie Håkan, and there male pronouns are consistently used.

Yeah, but, he sees it and we see his reaction, but it stopped there and the subject was not touched further at the movie and Oskar didn't seem to care or think about it after that. Was not really an issue since that was not the point of the movie and i just wanted to know more of what it meant for the characters.

[metoo]

The question of Eli's true gender is not included in the film as it is, but that wasn't the original plan. Instead TA intended to include the castration scene, but he changed his mind at the very last moment, when the pig arrived to the set. The pig that was to be cut for the scene. TA then realised he didn't want an innocent animal to be hurt for such a purpose, and the scene was cancelled.

[Elias Eriksson]

The question of Eli's true gender is not included in the film as it is, but that wasn't the original plan. Instead TA intended to include the castration scene, but he changed his mind at the very last moment, when the pig arrived to the set. The pig that was to be cut for the scene. TA then realised he didn't want an innocent animal to be hurt for such a purpose, and the scene was cancelled.

Ah! Well, i think i can back him up on such decision. I also think that the movie did not need the castration scene, for me it's better how it was. It could easily be interpreted as shock value since Eli's gender was not a main topic in the film.

[Alice?Maybe]

Eli's gender makes for an interesting topic. All we have to go on are Eli tellin Oskar, and us, that she is neither a girl or a boy. We need to respect how Eli perceives Eli's gender, neither boy nor girl. As far as pronouns, I wish English had a good gender neutral pronoun. I use she because in the English translation of the book she is used when we meet Eli and up until she shows Oskar that she is genitalless. Also, Eli's gender expression tends towards the feminine. When in Oskar's house she chooses a dress, which seems to catch Oskar a bit by surprise. Oskar cannot choose Eli's gender identity, his assumption is that the girl he knew is now really a boy, yet Eli chooses to present as a girl. So, all we really know is that Eli doesn't identify as either girl or boy. Does this mean she rejects the gender binary? Again, we don't know.