A pedophiles thoughts about LTROI

[sauvin]

I believe Eli had been taught to stop the infection by breaking necks or setting fire - anything, it seems to me, guaranteed to put a full stop to metabolic activity within a very short span of time. I interpret this to mean that whatever the invading pathogen is, it doesn't waste much time moving in and setting up housekeeping, but it needs at least a little bit of remaining heartbeat or cellular biochemistry or something to move with.

The difference between Eli and Haakan before he died was that Haakan could (and did) choose not to create victims - not the kind, at any rate, demanded by the particular monster monkey riding his back his whole life. Eli had the same choice, but it would involve staying up to watch the sun rise. The difference between Eli and Haakan after he died was that Eli, having never died, had retained a mind and, I presume, a heart, where newly dead Haakan seemed to be driven only by the most primitive of needs: eat, sleep and make little Haakans.

It might be amusing but probably ultimately pointless to argue about exactly what the pathogen is or how long it takes to move in, but I'm confident any decent pathologist would tell you a human body doesn't die all at once. Some things go South almost immediately (brains, for example), and some things remain viable for hours (hearts, I believe). If different parts of the brain also die at different rates, then maybe the "higher" brain functions go South first, with the parts immediately around the brain stem give up the ghost last. If so, the crocodile that we all once were so many millions and millions of years ago is the most robust and tenacious part of our being.

So, at the moment of Haakan's passing, the race was on: the pathogen had to colonise completely enough to take over the host before imminent decomposition made that impossible, and I interpret Haakan's postmortem fixation on Eli to imply that not everything that he had once been had been lost before the pathogen succeeded in stabilising the host's brain... but precious little had survived.

In the long stretches of Haakan's streams of consciousness in the novel, I always thought there was some pretty startling honesty mixed in with an awful lot of primp-and-preen delusion and maybe a strong hint of moral arrogance. I don't remember that he ever tried to con himself that his particular paraphilia had any kind of moral (or even merely evolutionary) justification, but wasn't he also the guy who claimed that kids of the day had no idea what love even is? His own bad but very literate self, of course, did, and I sometimes think his pouring acid all over himself was as much an expression of actual love as it was a deadly attempt at proving himself correct in that assertion.

Strip away all the Shakespeare, all the capacity for moral reasoning or sympathy, and maybe this is all you'd get from anybody whose brains weren't all the way dead before Eli's brand of monstrosity takes the wheel. Some of us might like teenage boys, some might like little girls, some of us might go for the guys with the sixpack abs and others of us would go for the ladies with the most puffed out poodle sweaters - but we wouldn't be trying to work within the confines of any kind of moral, legal or social calculus, we'd just be trying to reach out and grab what we want, and only kind of "no" we'd understand would come with a baseball bat or a bullet.

[Pissball]

I don't think LTROI treats pedophilia that deeply. It is shown in a more pulpy way and for shocking-repulsive value.
I mean, pedophillia is part of the HORROR in the book, Hakan the pedophile, at the end of the day is the absolut monster, although I do see his story as a tragedy.
I don't see it as a story to treat otr study "seriously" pedophilia at all, however it seems very noble and genuine of yours to find such emotions, especially this idea of Hakan as the opposite of yours, the monster yo don't want to be.
I really cannot see what kind of "love" other than parental can feel ana adult to a child, to me, in my ignorance, pedophilia is a sexual deviation/paraphillia.
You did a nice commentary on remarking the ephebillia/pedophilia,always sepeaking of attraction, altought is very confuse, IMO alt least half of men can be a attracted to teens, in fact, on the contrary of what feminism says, this "ephebophillia" (if it is what I think it is) is not a modern "social construct" product of sexualizing girls, for instance it was "normal" for an adult male to take a girl in her 15, of course life expentance was lower, different times, the girls were expected to make families etc. That attraction is surpased when you grown up and matture, both emotionally and sexually.
Pederasty was "normal" for some greeks, persians, and even samurais, and Im not an expert, but it wasn't with childs, but teens-preteens, and particulary wasn't necessary a sexual thing, but also a bizarre way of love and education from master to apprentice.

[Phobos]

@sauvin, so you mean Zombie Hakan stands for all the monstrosity in our souls? Interesting, i´ll have my thoughts about that. In fact, humans are capable of doing any hellish crimes. That´s so true.

@Pissball, thanks for your Kind words. Pedophilia isn´t something you are born with. It´s like a "disease" you catch when things go really really really wrong in your puberty. So it would have been interesting to learn more about Hakans youth. But as it has been stated here before, LTROI isn´t all about pedohilia, but about a lonly boy and of course Eli. So i too think pedophilia is just some Kind of "extra Horror" in the book.

In what you wrote, you pointed out some interesting questions. I´ll try to answer (please remember that my mothers tongue is german. i´ll try to tanslate this as good as i can)

Shure, it´s hard for "normal" People to see how one can feel anything else than parental love to a child. And of course pedophilia is a sexual Deviation. Having said that, the love that a pedophile feels to a child is the same as a "normal" couple feels for each other. This causes extreme "Leidensdruck" (pressure of suffering) because our feelings can never be replied. It´s estimated that about 1% of the male population is in fact primarily pedophile. That in numbers is quite a bunch. But it has to be a primary sexual preference. once looking at a "girl in her 15" doesn´t make you ephebile. So here "normal" men and pedo/ephebile are different. In fact most men can be attracted to Teens, but as i said it´s not a sexual Preference. " Kein Täter werden" is often contacted by men totaly shocked about themselfs because they for example watched a teen Girl passing by. But they arent in fact pedo/ephebile. It´s a tricky Story and still a subject to thorough forensic Research. Also in fact "kein Täter werden" is based on the american "Sex offender threatment program" (SOTP) So this is another good thing coming from the USA

[dongregg]

Sauvin wrote: If different parts of the brain also die at different rates, then maybe the "higher" brain functions go South first, with the parts immediately around the brain stem give up the ghost last. If so, the crocodile that we all once were so many millions and millions of years ago is the most robust and tenacious part of our being.

About Haakan--As a revenant (the living dead. I prefer that to zombie) Haakan acts differently toward Eli. But you see, the brain developed over hundreds of millions of years to accomplish 3 main things: mixing of genes (mating), feeding, and avoiding being fed on (or otherwise coming to a bad end). These primitive functions (and the parts of the brain that run them) are incorporated into higher forms of life, and the crocodile part of the brain can be overridden to an extent by more complex--more recently added--layers of the brain.

Okay, it doesn't take permanent brain damage to lose the use of higher brain functions. You can mimic brain damage with a dose of spirits, and it starts with the first shot. Judgment is the first to go. "I'll just stop for a quick one" sounds reasonable, but the quick one shuts down judgment, so many quick ones might follow before one gets home. You will observe that inebriated people talk loud. Hearing is among the next functions that takes a hit. Coordination and balance, and then vision (seeing double). Walking a straight line. Ingest enough and you can't walk at all.

Once the very lowest brain functions shut down, you stop breathing and your heart stops beating.

We can say that only Haakan's "reptilian brain" and brain stem are functioning, and whatever these functions are keep him moving and goal oriented. As Sauvin suggests, it is futile to attempt to discover which of his actions are caused by his brain damage and which are caused by a virus (or something) that JAL invented.

[Phobos]

That surly explains Hakans behaviour in a rational way. But i like the idea of seeing this in a more metaphorical way.
Hakan deprived of his conscience, as a metaphore of all evil in man. And again this is an inducement to me always keep in mind "walking the right path"

[Wolfchild]

... So from my point of view i can´t tell if Hakan is hebephile. In the (extremly hard to bear) basement rape scene Hakan clearly acts as a pure sadist. Here he is reduced to absolute sadism.
I can´t understand what JAL is trying to say with this.
In the first few pages of the book discribing Hakan his feelings and thoughts could be credible. But it´s such strong contrast later in that basement. Can this all be explained by his infection? Has he become a brainless Zombie after his body and awareness died falling out of that hospital window? Does he still feels distress? Or is JAL pointing to the contradictions of our souls?

Actually, I don't think that John was saying anything at all about about pedophilia. He was instead saying something about Eli. He discusses some of his intentions for Håkan in this thread. Despite its prominence as a topic, this story is not about pedophilia. This story is about love and, in my opinion, the role of acceptance in love. I believe that the purpose of everything in the novel is trying to get the reader to believe that Eli could fall in love Oskar, and Oskar could fall in love with Eli. To illustrate the struggle with acceptance and also that acceptance is essential. Thus, Eli is a monster - but not the only monster.

Regarding the basement scene in particular: I think that by giving us us a look into Håkan's internal dialog throughout the novel, it builds a sort of twisted sexual tension (à la Lolita) but coupled with the terrible contrast between Håkan's view of love and the horror it will ultimately bring to his love's object. That basement scene is definitely one of the most horrible things I have I have ever read, which I suppose makes a very successful passage to have in a horror novel.

[Phobos]

Wolfchild,
i´ve read what JAL wrote and it´s yet another punch in the guts. Hakan the pedophile, the lust only driven monster beeing worse than eli the killer. Well guys, i can tell you, it ain´t that simple beeing pedophile in real life. I absolutly understand for Hakan beeing just a sub plot, but i would have wished that JAL did a little bit more resarch on pedophilia, rather than making Hakan a mockery as he "uses" a pedophile in the novel. It´s not that we are mindless lust driven Monsters that deserve all worlds hate. In our Arduous march called life it´s mostly about despair, enormous self-hate, beeing lonly and having no one to talk to. Most pedophiles fully understand their situation and reject any contact to children. Of course there´s absolutly contemptible scum out there abusing children, but most of us DON´T do that! Sorry that i am a bit resentful right now, but these are my thoughts on the topic.

[sauvin]

Haakan may have been driven by his lusts prior to his death through Eli, but those lusts may also just be complicating (or outright masking) something else: gratitude. Having fled his burning house, as I recall, in his underwear, his career destroyed, she found him sitting on a park bench steadily trying to destroy himself with things that aren't really fit for human consumption. She gave him a roof to live under, clothes to wear and food to eat. A new lease on life, as it were, even if his new career wouldn't have been his first choice.

JAL uses lots of different kinds of people in the novel, and I doubt he researched them thoroughly. There's a nurse or two, and a few doctors, but I doubt very much he studied medicine. There's a cop or two, but I doubt JAL studied law enforcement much. Likewise, there's a pedophile, and maybe JAL is on track with Haakan's streams of consciousness, and maybe he isn't (and maybe none of us can say either way with any real authority).

It doesn't matter.

In the movie, Eli walks up to the nurse at the hospital to say "I'm looking for my papa. He's sick. Cops brought him in." The nurse really only serves a couple of purposes in this scene, one of them being a reasonably pleasant face on a large institution (the hospital as co-operating with law enforcement) and to be human enough to feel sorry for the girl running around in the winter in bare feet. The cop in the beginning of the movie similarly serves as the face of an institution (a police department) mocking and marginalising Oskar. Cops in the movie in general are necessarily ineffective at protecting the public weal because they can't possibly have any realistic clue what kind of murderess they're looking for.

In so doing, JAL isn't impugning doctors or nurses. They're really just props - mannequins - to help tell a story or create an effect. There are good doctors and nurses, dedicated to fighting disease and promoting health, and there are always going to be those few who aren't so good or so dedicated. The same with the cops: there are good cops, dedicated to protecting the innocent and maintaining a quiet, safe place where people can live comfortably, and there are always going to be a few not such great exemplars of the human ideal, but the ones in the story are just so many more mannequins to help the story move along.

If it helps, I've run across precious few stories involving people like me, and can't remember that any of them ever really "got it right". In most of them, the deafness was just a prop, and the deaf people themselves just mannequins. That's OK: most of those stories weren't about the people who can't hear, they were about something else. While I might be temporarily (and mildly) annoyed that deaf people in these stories weren't particularly dimensional, or even realistic at all, and might have felt that a bit more research could have yielded up a valuable Social Justice Message, nobody can really fault the stories' writers, publishers, producers or directors for not wanting to budget too much time and money for painting the incidental props and mannequins beyond the point of diminishing returns.

[Phobos]

Again you say words of wisdom. i apologise for making a fuss again. Maybe i take things too personally sometimes.

[Wolfchild]

Wolfchild,
i´ve read what JAL wrote and it´s yet another punch in the guts. Hakan the pedophile, the lust only driven monster beeing worse than eli the killer. Well guys, i can tell you, it ain´t that simple beeing pedophile in real life. I absolutly understand for Hakan beeing just a sub plot, but i would have wished that JAL did a little bit more resarch on pedophilia, rather than making Hakan a mockery as he "uses" a pedophile in the novel. It´s not that we are mindless lust driven Monsters that deserve all worlds hate. In our Arduous march called life it´s mostly about despair, enormous self-hate, beeing lonly and having no one to talk to. Most pedophiles fully understand their situation and reject any contact to children. Of course there´s absolutly contemptible scum out there abusing children, but most of us DON´T do that! Sorry that i am a bit resentful right now, but these are my thoughts on the topic.

By the time of the basement scene, Håkan absolutely was a "mindless lust driven Monster," was he not? I did not say, (nor do I think that John said), that he was a monster solely because he was a pedophile. However, his feelings for Eli planted the seeds for Zombie Håkan becoming such a monstrous threat to Eli. They were subverted by the Infection. In fact, John had already laid the groundwork for this by describing Virginia's experience. The purpose of Virginia is to give us a look into what Eli's experience has been like, but also to give us a sense of the Infection itself:

It was toward morning, when she was sitting on a kitchen chair and sucking blood from a cut in the crook of her arm - the second one in the same spot - that she was suddenly pulled into the depths of her body and caught sight of it.

The infection.

She didn't really see it, of course, but suddenly she had an ever-increasing perception of what it was. It was like being pregnant and getting an ultrasound, looking at the screen showing you how your belly was filled with, in this case, not a child but a large, writhing snake. That this was what you were carrying.

Because what she had realized at that moment was that the infection had its own life, its own force, completely independent of her body. That the infection would live on even if she did not. The mother-to-be could die of shock at the ultrasound but no one would notice anything because the snake would take control of the body instead.

Suicide would make no difference.

...

For a long time she sat curled up in a corner of the living room, watching how the dawn light through the slats of the blinds laid a grate over the soiled rug. Thought about her grandson Ted. How he had crawled over to that place where the afternoon sun shone in onto the floor and fallen asleep in the pool of sunlight with his thumb in his mouth.

The naked, soft skin, the tender skin that you would only have to ...

What am I thinking!

Virginia flinched, staring vacantly into space. She had seen Ted, and she had imagined that she ...

No!

She hit herself in the head. Hit and hit until the picture was crushed. But she would never see him again. Could never see anyone she loved ever again.

I am never again to see anyone I love.

However, after his fall from the window, Håkan has had his higher reasoning switched off. It is just the Infection, the snake in control. If Håkan had not been a pedophile, if he had not believed that he was in love with Eli, there would be no reason for Zombie Håkan to seek out Eli in particular. In order for Zombie Håkan to be a plausible threat to Eli, JAL had to make it seem plausible to us that the lust of his life were retained by the zombie, and I think that our insight into Virginia's experience does just that.

I'm not sure why this should make you feel resentful. Do you see Eli as being a worse monster than Zombie Håkan?