High School Students Reading

For discussion of John Ajvide Lindqvist's novel Låt den rätte komma in
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Wolfchild
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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by Wolfchild » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:40 am

sauvin wrote:I think if we were all to think back to high school English or Literature classes, we'd find ourselves remembering having to read all sorts of horrific things. In my sophomore year, for example (when I was 14), we spent quite a bit of time listening to a garrulous old bat run on and on about various works of Poe, ever drearily swooning over this symbolism or that clever turn of phrase (and murdering any hope of my ever appreciating Poe's works even to this day).
Are you saying that no high school education should be better than yours? :D

In any case, I don't think that Poe ever published anything that could compare to the antics of Zombie Håkan.

My daughter started high school this past Monday. If she told me that she wanted to read LDKRI, I would certainly let her. If she came to me and told me that she had to read LDKRI for a grade, I would be going down to the school tomorrow. I'm pretty sure she is not ready for some of the things in the novel. If she told me that she wanted to read it, I might start to suspect that I am underestimating her, but I would make sure that she had the context to deal with, and I would also make sure she knew that she could put it down whenever she wanted.
...the story derives a lot of its appeal from its sense of despair and a darkness in which the love of Eli and Oskar seems to shine with a strange and disturbing light.
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lombano
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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by lombano » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:38 pm

sauvin wrote:I think if we were all to think back to high school English or Literature classes, we'd find ourselves remembering having to read all sorts of horrific things. In my sophomore year, for example (when I was 14), we spent quite a bit of time listening to a garrulous old bat run on and on about various works of Poe, ever drearily swooning over this symbolism or that clever turn of phrase (and murdering any hope of my ever appreciating Poe's works even to this day).
Probably somewhat like my own experience - I developed a permanent 'allergy' to the literature of Spain because of the books that were required reading in HS. Count yourself lucky that you were made to read Poe and not stuff like Doña Bárbara - think a soap opera in very slow motion, that is also supposed to be an oh-so-patriotic Venezuelan thing (written by a politician) or the Mio Cid - sure, it has historical importance, but a piece of feudal propaganda in a Spanish so antique that it has to be read in translation even by native speakers really isn't very likely to appeal to teenagers. In all fairness we also read some pretty good stuff, but still.
Wolfchild wrote:I think that a distinction needs to be drawn here. Are we talking about having LDRKI available in the school library, or putting it on a curriculum? I would have no problem putting the novel on the shelf in any library. Any student who was interested could then seek it out, and anyone who started it could decide at any point to not finish it.

However, putting it on a curriculum means forcing any entire class (or many classes) to read it. Any youngster who would not want to sabotage their grade would have no choice but to read it. Every student, regardless of maturity level, sensitivity, or religious beliefs would be forced to read in graphic detail about a pedophile's encounter with a juvenile prostitute (two different encounters, actually), the castration of a young boy, the rape of a child by a zombie pedophile, a woman thinking hungrily of devouring her grandchild's afterbirth... and that is just off the top of my head.

Whereas the film version is a beautiful love story that contains horror elements, LDKRI the novel is a horror novel that contains a beautiful love story. Whatever we want to say about the love story, the horror elements are truly horrific. I would be all for putting the film on a high school curriculum, but I would be dead set against forcing any child (young adult, whatever) to read the novel. As much as I love it, I realize that it is not for everyone, and no one should be forced to read it.
Obviously i hadn't thought my answer through, you're right about the difference between making it compulsory reading and allowing HSers to read it. In my defense it seems so unlikely anyone would try to assign it here that it's a parallel-universe discussion.
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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by sauvin » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:13 pm

Wolfchild wrote:Are you saying that no high school education should be better than yours? :D
As a rule, folks from my graduating class could tell you what ten percent of five dollars is,
could point out France on a globe without hesitation and knew when to say "its" instead of "it's". I'm confident the majority of them could spell "midichlorians" without consulting Google, too. My sad little town didn't get it right very often, but the school's academic performance at the time was on the entire state's short list.

Some of the things I've been reading about American and British schoolkids are themselves horror stories. Knowing how to calculate percentages, knowing where major countries are on the globe and being able to manage proper spelling and grammar should be criteria for graduation from middle school, but if what I'm reading is true, the bulk of today's high school educated Yanks and Limeys couldn't figure these things out without a smart phone and a three day head start.

My strong preference would be have somebody able to prove that I'm misinterpreting what I read, and that most high school kids are getting a better education than what I had.
Wolfchild wrote:In any case, I don't think that Poe ever published anything that could compare to the antics of Zombie Håkan.
Nor do I, but Poe was just an example. I do remember being required to read up on men abducting others to island settings in order to hunt "the most dangerous game", or about being immured or buried prematurely. Different people find different things upsetting.

I'm still trying to remember some of the other things I was required to read in high school, but not coming up with much. To be honest, I think I used English and literature classes to catch up on my sleep. Can any of the other greybeards chime in with anything they'd had to read in high school from Way Back When that would be called into question today for its horrific content?

Another issue here is age. Like you, I think I'd be calling some people and asking some pretty pointed questions if I were to learn that high school freshmen were being required to read an unedited LTROI in its entirety, but I'd be considerably less upset if the seniors were studying it. There's a big difference between the twelve years old I was when first going into high school, and the eighteen that most kids are when they collect their diplomas.

And yet another issue was gone over in this thread, but let me add this: I am personally much more discomfited by violence than by sex; for most Americans, it's the other way around. Goodness knows why on the larger scale, but anything involving raw, brutal violence made my twelve year old self skittish and nervous; this may have something to do with having experienced some of it personally. No doubt a few of the others would have been uncomfortable with Haken and his "antics" not because of religious beliefs or conventional moral outrage, but because their hidden personal experience is too similar. Older kids might not be as bothered because, well, they're older, bigger, physically stronger and, one would hope, mentally tougher.

After having seen some of the lists of books banned from school libraries and school curricula, though, and some of the reasons cited for the banning: I think it's an excellent thing that parents are so concerned with what's happening with or to their children at school, but some of these banned titles leave me questioning just what kinds of questions the parents are asking.
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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by EEA » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:07 am

I also read Dona Barbara since my mom bought the book and I enjoy reading it probably because I wanted to read it. Mio Cid I read for the Spanish classes I took for high school. Really a boring read. The teacher had to explain almost every part. I still remember the beginning. I think it was a man who got his beard cut and that was an offense to him since his beard represented his honor. It was pretty dull. And I did not like that the women in the story were treated as objects. Read also some Don Quijote, Lazarillo de Tormes which I liked, Don Juan Tenorio, some short stories in Spanish that were good, and the only books I enjoyed reading were the ones I chose when we had to write a book report. I liked this book Cafe Nostalgia, and The Popul vuh.
For English I also had to read Poe but I did not like his writing. Later I liked some of his short stories. Read The Illiad, mostly Shakespeare, or else nothing since the English teacher left and the class got different substitute teachers and it was watching movies, falling sleep, or learning how to write a five paragraph essay. I dont think much has changed my siblings also had to read Shakespeare and took the same classes as I did.

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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by lombano » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:32 am

jdudley118 wrote:As I get my thoughts together, here is a quick list of the ten most commonly banned books in the USA, the land of the free! Violence and profanity are the main reasons for most of these. This is just a small sample.
http://712educators.about.com/od/banned ... _books.htm
I read several of these in my teens. I find it telling that at least two of these (The Lord of the Flies and The Catcher in the Rye) are brutally honest portrayals of kids - Lord of the Flies is in my view an entirely realistic portrayal of what would actually happen in such desert island circumstances, and Holden Caulfield is a very good portrayal of a certain kind of adolescent, of certain teenage matters, etc (in fact one of the top three portrayals of teenagers that I've read, along with Dostoyevski's The Adolescent and Roger Martin du Gard's Jacques Thibault in Les Thibault).

sauvin wrote: As a rule, folks from my graduating class could tell you what ten percent of five dollars is,
could point out France on a globe without hesitation and knew when to say "its" instead of "it's". I'm confident the majority of them could spell "midichlorians" without consulting Google, too. My sad little town didn't get it right very often, but the school's academic performance at the time was on the entire state's short list.

Some of the things I've been reading about American and British schoolkids are themselves horror stories. Knowing how to calculate percentages, knowing where major countries are on the globe and being able to manage proper spelling and grammar should be criteria for graduation from middle school, but if what I'm reading is true, the bulk of today's high school educated Yanks and Limeys couldn't figure these things out without a smart phone and a three day head start.
If it's any consolation, my grandfather, in primary school, learned English and French and the sort of stuff you mention (I know this for a fact, I've seen his notebooks - which he sewed together himself as he couldn't afford to buy them) - in a government school which did not charge a penny, and not even in Mexico City or the relatively prosperous northern cities. Today you can find college students enrolled in physics that can't divide 2/10 without a calculator, PhD students that couldn't spell their way out a wet paper bag, etc and, some years ago, according to a survey of simple maths questions (such as 'what is 1/2 of 1/2?'), although the best performers were the college-educated, the worst were those who had done only a few years of primary school, not those who hadn't gone to school at all (of course, some schools do still provide an excellent education, but many don't).

EEA wrote:I also read Dona Barbara since my mom bought the book and I enjoy reading it probably because I wanted to read it. Mio Cid I read for the Spanish classes I took for high school. Really a boring read. The teacher had to explain almost every part. I still remember the beginning. I think it was a man who got his beard cut and that was an offense to him since his beard represented his honor. It was pretty dull. And I did not like that the women in the story were treated as objects. Read also some Don Quijote, Lazarillo de Tormes which I liked, Don Juan Tenorio, some short stories in Spanish that were good, and the only books I enjoyed reading were the ones I chose when we had to write a book report. I liked this book Cafe Nostalgia, and The Popul vuh.
For English I also had to read Poe but I did not like his writing. Later I liked some of his short stories. Read The Illiad, mostly Shakespeare, or else nothing since the English teacher left and the class got different substitute teachers and it was watching movies, falling sleep, or learning how to write a five paragraph essay. I dont think much has changed my siblings also had to read Shakespeare and took the same classes as I did.
I also read for school Don Juan Tenorio for school (I didn't like it, but didn't truly loathe it either), as well as the Popul Vuh, which I didn't really like or dislike much. I never read Poe in school, not even during the year of HS I did in the US nor in English class in Mexico. In Spanish class we only ever read stuff written originally in Spanish, the only thing we ever read in translation was the Mio Cid, which I think pretty much everyone hated. By far the books I liked best of those that I had to read for school were Juan Rulfo's Pedro Páramo and El llano en llamas. Gabriel García Márquez has an anecdote that at some point in is early days as a writer someone handed him a copy of Pedro Páramo 'so that you'll learn' and he was indeed impressed by it.
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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by Ash » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 am

A timely article from yesterday's newspaper here in Sydney.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/boo ... 24q7i.html

And Harry Potter? The novels espouse the values of friendship, loyalty, resisting evil and rectitude. Isn't that also what the Bible teaches?
Narrow-minded thinking and censorship - a plague o' both your houses.

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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by sauvin » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:28 am

Ash wrote:A timely article from yesterday's newspaper here in Sydney.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/boo ... 24q7i.html

And Harry Potter? The novels espouse the values of friendship, loyalty, resisting evil and rectitude. Isn't that also what the Bible teaches?
Narrow-minded thinking and censorship - a plague o' both your houses.
Agreed. Furthermore, if the schools don't want the kids going to this parade (or whatever) dressed as witches and warlocks because such longstanding symbols of Western culture are inconsistent with Christian values, then let the kids go to this parade dressed as Torquemada.
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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by thestich » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:55 am

Sorry to inject some humor into a serious and interesting discussion, but the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw Torquemada was:
Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by Ash » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:37 am

My thoughts on religion (in general)-

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Re: High School Students Reading

Post by sauvin » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:20 am

Ash wrote:My thoughts on religion (in general)-
The gravity and import of this sort of discussion can hardly be overstressed.

As an example, a critical juncture is seen with galvanised sugar; some iconoclastic schools of thought casuistically differentiate it from volcanic grape confitures. In practical terms the difference is negligible at best, since both are thought to foster prismatically amorphous transubstantiations, most notably when catalysis is facilitated by having unbiased observers ingest spotted motorcycle sidecar truffles a few hours prior. However, the underpinning quantum semantics do blur somewhat after the observers have either gone tumultuously wainscotting down hitherto unsuspected rabbit holes, or have unwittingly and unwillingly absconded by means of airborne structures departing Kansas in an unorthodox manner.

Sanity is best preserved by carefully examining all food packaging labels, particularly those of spices and condiments. Extra attention is needed for consumables purchased at establishments specialising in "entheogens"; excessive levels of spackle or extraterrestrial regolith are best avoided, as are byproducts of bat's wings or newt's eyes. In addition to dietary precautions, it's recommended to apply axle grease to the soles of the feet thrice daily, avoid prolonged exposure to fresh carpeting and watch a minimum of three hours of American infomercials daily.

However, since forewarned is not necessarily well forearmed, I am constrained to further advise forum members of the appalling meta-hasard posed by the existence of a substance called dihydrogen monoxide (or hydric acid), commonly used in massive quantities in major manufacturing processes. All forum members reading this post are urged to read this site carefully; its potential relevance may be discussed at some length in future posts, particularly within the context of the current topic (metamaterially relevant with respect to perspectives on perceptional natural philosophy).

As a caution, however, I should further add that absinthe is incompatible with galvanised sugar.
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