LTODD: The Loss of Innocence (Spoilers!)

[PeteMork]

I think this is the very point - there are no innocent human beings. Thinking of the story as an allegory, humanity is flawed. Conny et al, Oskar's mum and dad, etc are 'everyman'. The one who rejected O&E. Sometimes our sins come back to bite us.

As an allegory, LTROI does seem to work, as you’ve described. The purity of their love survives, despite their being abused and rejected by a flawed humanity, mainly because they are innocent victims. But don't you think it's rendered meaningless as an allegory as soon as the children commit the same sin? As soon as Eli turns Oskar, no matter the reason, their beautiful story is reduced to one in which two groups of sinners abuse each other for eternity.

Even if we try to argue that Eli and Oskar were driven by this flawed humanity to commit this one ‘sin,’ doesn’t this also apply to each member of humanity? Conny, et al., were just children too. Weren’t they driven to do what they did because of their own abuse by a flawed humanity? And by the time we get back to the “First Cause,” as St. Thomas Aquinas put it, all of us have sinned as a result of a flawed humanity. As Pogo so brilliantly put it so many years ago, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

[God of Vampires]

If there's no real difference between humans and animals, and killing animals is morally wrong, why isn't someone punishing the animals for killing each other?

Or are we saying that human life is of no greater value than animal life, so either can be killed with impunity?

Well, the point is that there is no objective distinction. The reason killing another human is wrong is because you kill another of your kind. Do you know why morality exists? Guess so because you seem smart . In the animal world, the rules are passed down from the alpha to uphold stability in the pack, its the same reason for humans. The reason we see murder as evil depends on many things; as PeteMork said

I must say. But I would point out that most animals don’t normally kill and eat their own kind. With us humans at least, it has a great deal to do with empathy. You can feel their pain, you can understand their fear, and you can appreciate what their deaths would feel like if you were on the other end of those fangs. Empathy. One of the nobler characteristics of what makes a decent human being.

This is true, but I also have empathy for animals (not like that stop me from murdering insects I find annoying ). This is one of my aruments for that causing suffering is worse than causing death. We have laws against killing each other mainly to stop the cycle of revenge that would otherwise be started. I mentioned how the rules comes from the pack leader, in the past, these rules applied only only to the members of this pack, it was once considered okay to treat members of different packs how they wanted. Though these packs of humans grew larger over time, the protection of the alpha's laws extended to cities, to nations, to what is the case now, all human societies. It is worth to note that before the 20th centuary, members not of the own nation was considered without rights and okay to kill, this is how the murder and rape of civilians in war were justified back then . With the rise of the UN, all humans were considered to be protected and given rights. But to this very day, this only applies to the pack(humans) with limited presence of animal rights. Sadly Eli would be considered outside this protective shield, any human could kill her without consequence, just any animal who who poses a threat to humans(but only to defend human life mind you). Likewise, Eli has no obligation to follow human rules.

As Oskar choose to be turned, he steps outside the protective shield of human law, now vulnerable to being killed without consequence, but no longer bound by the laws of humanity. I see this as a self-sacrifice from Oskar's part, he forsakes his place in society for Eli's sake. To live with her outside of society, Oskar sacrifices all he's got. Such is his love for Eli that he rather be hunted by his own kind than to live without her, thats devotion . Eli and Oskar can now be considered their own pack, an alpha pair if you like . Their only responsibillity is to eachother

Now when I think of it I just described the origin of law, not morality, but they must be closely connected .

If Oskar were your son, wouldn’t you want to protect him and keep him safe? Wouldn’t you be concerned if you knew he had made a choice that would make the rest of his life even more difficult than it was already? Even if he made the choice with the best of intentions?

Can't argue that this choice would not make his life more difficult, but I see it as quite a noble thing to do for Eli's sake. This has some parellels of parents not liking the girl their son is dating, you must ask yourself the same question, What's more important? Letting him be with the one he love or protecting him from what you perceive as harmful influence.

As a work of fiction, LTODD is, needless to say, an extremely well-written Epilogue that does exactly what JAL wanted it to do. It dispels the idea that Oskar is the next Hakan, and gives Oskar and Eli a relatively happy life together. And it will probably spawn some great new Fan Fiction.

I contend that my ending, although not as exciting or potentially full of conflict of biblical proportions with an inferior species (us) as some of this new FF might be, is a much happier one for them both (and for Hannah). Please! Don’t thank me…It was the least I could do for them after all they’ve done for me.

That reminds me that I must read your new fanfiction .I really liked the ending of your epilogue, Gudmund essentially created a sort of vampire that could walk in daylight and eat the same food humans do, Eli was essentially given the best of two worlds, so yeah, utopia . I will probably read Intrige's fanfic first though, I also have to read "once bitten" as it is considered by many to be among the best.

Yes, I agre with you! I also wanted Oskar to be infected. But it suprised me how fast it was to be done. I have posted my video on this in the first page, so I do not need to sum it all up once again. But you made it sound a whole lot smarter

And hey, Good for vampries, I am not tired of your talk. I don't think anyone is really

Thanks .

[lombano]

I had actually thought of comparing Oskar and Eli to Charles Starkweather and Caril Ann Fugate. However, after looking into it a little bit, I quickly came to the conclusion that it was a shallow comparison, as I believe the comparison to Bonnie & Clyde to be as well.

The two outlaw couples were not required to kill in order to survive. For Starkweather and Fugate, the killing was fueled by a straight up sociopathic power trip. Although Starkweather was the victim of bullying while young, he himself became a bully in adolescence. For Bonnie & Clyde, it started out as pure greed and morphed was the craving for attention thinly disguised as anti-bank populism.

Neither couple was truly expelled from human society as Eli was, nor trodden on as cruelly by it as Oskar was. Eli and Oskar have no elaborate rationale for killing other than the most simple (and most truthful) one: they must.

I just KNEW someone was going to bring that up! But, likewise, Eli was not required to turn Oskar into a mass murderer. It was a choice they both made. And, of course, we can't really know whether or not Bonnie and Clyde felt as though they were expelled from human society or not. I don't think they were ever asked that question directly.

And, of course you're right; my tongue-in-cheek comparison isn't really fair and is quite shallow. I just used it to emphasize the fact that our love for the characters clouds the ethical lapse by both of them, children or not, when Eli turned Oskar. Even if I understand it, and can find it in my heart to forgive the little darlings, it remains an ethical lapse with tragic consequences for thousands of innocent human beings.

I think this is the very point - there are no innocent human beings. Thinking of the story as an allegory, humanity is flawed. Conny et al, Oskar's mum and dad, etc are 'everyman'. The one who rejected O&E. Sometimes our sins come back to bite us.

It is true that their treatment at the hands of society is the cause of what they do, but that's very different from saying it justifies what they do.

[Wolfchild]

It is true that their treatment at the hands of society is the cause of what they do, but that's very different from saying it justifies what they do.

This is very true, but the truth of it does not withstand the imperative of one of my favorite quotes about this the love depicted in this story:

"A love which cannot work and yet must."

LTODD satisfies that imperative. And it satisfies me.

[Ash]

"A love which cannot work and yet must."

An irresistible force meets an immovable object?

[PeteMork]

I personally cannot stand the idea of things turning out like the events of "Oskar ar 40". I think unturned, this is exactly how things would have ended up. A miserable Oskar, a sad and confused Eli, and a relationship that is going down the tubes, soon to leave Eli alone again

As hard as this is to accept, isn’t a possible “Oskar at 40” scenario inherently better because Eli and Oskar have not committed the “sin” I describe above? In other words, have they definitely sacrificed their future happiness to avoid this “sin?” I’m not convinced. In fact I am certain that they could be happy without Oskar being turned.

Here is a plausable alternative:
http://let-the-right-one-in.com/fancont ... r-eighteen

[Wolfchild]

I personally cannot stand the idea of things turning out like the events of "Oskar ar 40". I think unturned, this is exactly how things would have ended up. A miserable Oskar, a sad and confused Eli, and a relationship that is going down the tubes, soon to leave Eli alone again

As hard as this is to accept, isn’t a possible “Oskar at 40” scenario inherently better because Eli and Oskar have not committed the “sin” I describe above? In other words, have they definitely sacrificed their future happiness to avoid this “sin?” I’m not convinced. In fact I am certain that they could be happy without Oskar being turned.

Here is a plausable alternative:
http://let-the-right-one-in.com/fancont ... r-eighteen

But in your story, their love can only last for decades at most. In JAL's, it can last for centuries.

[lombano]

I personally cannot stand the idea of things turning out like the events of "Oskar ar 40". I think unturned, this is exactly how things would have ended up. A miserable Oskar, a sad and confused Eli, and a relationship that is going down the tubes, soon to leave Eli alone again

As hard as this is to accept, isn’t a possible “Oskar at 40” scenario inherently better because Eli and Oskar have not committed the “sin” I describe above? In other words, have they definitely sacrificed their future happiness to avoid this “sin?” I’m not convinced. In fact I am certain that they could be happy without Oskar being turned.

Here is a plausable alternative:
http://let-the-right-one-in.com/fancont ... r-eighteen

Not read your story yet, but I agree that in a sense even 'Oskar at 40' is a better outcome. Not turning Oskar need not be that tragic either, there's also 'Love's Epitaph.'

But in your story, their love can only last for decades at most.

But that's how it goes for everyone - either you break up or someone dies.

[PeteMork]

But in your story, their love can only last for decades at most. In JAL's, it can last for centuries.

Sad, but true. Eli's loving relationship with Oskar would only last as long as Oskar lives. But even with a perfect love, isn't that the best any of us can expect out of our lives? Half of every loving couple in the world inevitably experiences the death of the one they love. Is Eli really any less lucky because she might live forever? Honestly, I can't really answer that question. But at least then, she will have known what love is, having been lucky enough to experience it with Oskar. Without compromise.

[PeteMork]

Not read your story yet, but I agree that in a sense even 'Oskar at 40' is a better outcome. Not turning Oskar need not be that tragic either, there's also 'Love's Epitaph.'

But in your story, their love can only last for decades at most.

But that's how it goes for everyone - either you break up or someone dies.

I had forgotten about 'Love's Epitaph'

Sorry. I didn't see your post until I posted mine. You beat me to it and with fewer words besides.